Official Shaolin Temple Cultural Centers

[Sal Canzonieri]

Ah yes, but the the sets were supposedly kept secret throughout most of their history. From what I understand, a great deal of information was not copied down. The bare remnants of what was copied was likely destroyed. Hebie and Shandong were victims of so many wars and invasions. It's very possible that there is an incomplete history there.

Correct, the sets were kept secret, during the Qing dynasty, that's one factor.

The other factor is that as long as someone studied more than one style, it will have an effect of improving and condensing movements in sets.
3 thousand years of Chinese martial arts has shown that.

It's not a big deal if Ku Yu "improved' the original 12 sets of Kanjia Quan, made them into ten sets. That's just want a master can do if he is truly a master.

BUT, don't forget, the he might have changed nothing and the sets had evolved over time from the 12 sets of Kanjia Quan to the 10 sets of Bak Silum, via all the people that taught it from 1780s to Ku yu's time period.

Lots of time for condensing and making the sets more 'efficient and effective'.

[bawang]

ok mister salzeroni when u done tell me ill buy one

having used to have access to the beijing library that scanned all of their books online, the old hard to understand shaolin quanpu say they are "hard and forceful" , "simple and direct", "dodging punches waist moves like willow", "dodging punches head moves like ocean wave", "punches like falling meteor" "footwork like drunk man"

basically saying shaolin fist has a lot of dodging and head bobbing, and circular strikes and random footwork. you can back me up on this mister salzeroni ths is legit info from their own quanpu. it is totally different from what they are doing right now


a lot of common northern techniques in their forms is done wrong but people dont notice because their graceful and powerful performance covers it up. common wrestling takedown "looking down at lake" is done as a back kick. blocking punches too high. doing the northern taizu men salute backwards. doing the sprawl "luohan slap ground" and "subdue tiger" comepletely wrong i cant even explain. circular punch "luohan carries burden" is done as a linear strike. double leg takedown is done as a double upward punch.
i suspect that maybe they just relearned forms from instruction manuals that survived the burning, that they know the ending poses for each move but dont know the transition movement

[Siu Lum Fighter]

I agree. Their "subdue tiger" looks kind of hoopdie. I don't see the circular strikes either. Many of the moves seem like they are taken directly from postures pictured in the old books or murals without the fluidity that would be characteristic of a complete set of techniques. No matter how hard I try, I just can't help feeling that the Song Shan and Kanjia Chuan forms are missing something that, it seems, should be there. I guess you could say it's a sort of "flavor" to the sets that seems like it's missing. When you see forms from, let's say, Bak Siu Lum or some other Northern Longfist Styles, there seems to be more naturalness to the moves and their transitions. Besides the technicalities as to which style is authentic, for me, as a Shaolin practitioner, it just "feels" as if styles like Northern Shaolin, Mizong Quan, Taizu Longfist and various Northern Shaolin Longfist styles I've seen practiced in Taiwan and elsewhere are characteristic of how the monks would have actually fought. The dodging, head bobbing, circular strikes and random footwork that bawang mentions are characteristics found in Northern Shaolin. You can't help but feel like you are in a real fight with devastating and deadly techniques being used all throughout the forms.

[Sal Canzonieri]

ok mister salzeroni when u done tell me ill buy one

having used to have access to the beijing library that scanned all of their books online, the old hard to understand shaolin quanpu say they are "hard and forceful" , "simple and direct", "dodging punches waist moves like willow", "dodging punches head moves like ocean wave", "punches like falling meteor" "footwork like drunk man"

basically saying shaolin fist has a lot of dodging and head bobbing, and circular strikes and random footwork. you can back me up on this mister salzeroni ths is legit info from their own quanpu. it is totally different from what they are doing right now


a lot of common northern techniques in their forms is done wrong but people dont notice because their graceful and powerful performance covers it up. common wrestling takedown "looking down at lake" is done as a back kick. blocking punches too high. doing the northern taizu men salute backwards. doing the sprawl "luohan slap ground" and "subdue tiger" comepletely wrong i cant even explain. circular punch "luohan carries burden" is done as a linear strike. double leg takedown is done as a double upward punch.
i suspect that maybe they just relearned forms from instruction manuals that survived the burning, that they know the ending poses for each move but dont know the transition movement

Exactly what my research has shown from translations of Shaolin manuals from the 1700s.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I agree. Their "subdue tiger" looks kind of hoopdie. I don't see the circular strikes either. Many of the moves seem like they are taken directly from postures pictured in the old books or murals without the fluidity that would be characteristic of a complete set of techniques. No matter how hard I try, I just can't help feeling that the Song Shan and Kanjia Chuan forms are missing something that, it seems, should be there. I guess you could say it's a sort of "flavor" to the sets that seems like it's missing. When you see forms from, let's say, Bak Siu Lum or some other Northern Longfist Styles, there seems to be more naturalness to the moves and their transitions. Besides the technicalities as to which style is authentic, for me, as a Shaolin practitioner, it just "feels" as if styles like Northern Shaolin, Mizong Quan, Taizu Longfist and various Northern Shaolin Longfist styles I've seen practiced in Taiwan and elsewhere are characteristic of how the monks would have actually fought. The dodging, head bobbing, circular strikes and random footwork that bawang mentions are characteristics found in Northern Shaolin. You can't help but feel like you are in a real fight with devastating and deadly techniques being used all throughout the forms.

Correct in that is what REAL Henan Shaolin Kanjia and other styles MUST have to be authentic.

It's common knowledge that the monks today (not the ones learning traditional Shaolin, which you won't generally see in public) are doing the postures but don't know how to do the in between movements generated from the waist, where all the action is!

[Siu Lum Fighter]

In reference to my last post: I don't want anyone to think that the current monks aren't graceful and powerful martial artists. The techniques that they practice are definitely Shaolin techniques. I just feel that a lot of stuff that's considered to be authentic Shaolin has been influenced by certain teachers and coaches in one way or another. Even the movies have had way too much of an influence on what's considered authentic Shaolin! The rocking back and forth that's done in all of the Shaolin Mantis forms was, as far as I know, never done by any real Preying Mantis practitioners. Practitioners were only meant to mimic the insect so far. Every Shaolin Mantis form I've seen has the weird back and forth head swaying. This was exactly what was done in Jet Li's "The Shaolin Temple". So that pretty much means that these official Shaolin Mantis techniques came from a movie? That realization has made me wonder what else that is now currently practiced at the temple has been influenced by movies or entertainment.

Still, there are drills and exercises that seem very useful, like they can ideally fit into any Shaolin regimen. I'm not saying that all of what the Shaolin monks do is not completely authentic. I'm also not saying that what is found in Northern Shaolin is completely authentic. I just can't help thinking that, when it comes to styles like Northern Shaolin, there is just as much there that can give someone a well-rounded, truly authentic Shaolin curriculum. Shoot, I might even commit to learning the Kanjia Quan forms someday so that I could compare and contrast. I'm sure I could learn a lot out of them. I just can't seem to bring myself to thinking they are the prototypes for the 10 Bak Siu Lum forms though. In the oral and written traditions of Bak Siu Lum there is no mention of 12 sets. Maybe there are discrepancies as far as which particular monk or rebel brought it forth, but there's no mention that it came from 12 sets. When it comes to traditional CMA's, it seems to me like styles are usually expanded on and not condensed. Tam Tui was expanded from 10 lines to 12 and so on for example.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Still, there are drills and exercises that seem very useful, like they can ideally fit into any Shaolin regimen. I'm not saying that all of what the Shaolin monks do is not completely authentic. I'm also not saying that what is found in Northern Shaolin is completely authentic. I just can't help thinking that, when it comes to styles like Northern Shaolin, there is just as much there that can give someone a well-rounded, truly authentic Shaolin curriculum. Shoot, I might even commit to learning the Kanjia Quan forms someday so that I could compare and contrast. I'm sure I could a lot out of them. I just can't seem to bring myself to thinking they are the prototypes for the 10 Bak Siu Lum forms though. In the oral and written traditions of Bak Siu Lum there is no mention of 12 sets. Maybe there are discrepancies as far as which particular monk or rebel brought it forth, but there's no mention that it came from 12 sets. When it comes to traditional CMA's, it seems to me like styles are usually expanded on and not condensed. Tam Tui was expanded from 10 lines to 12 and so on for example.

Um, I meant to say there were 13 Kanjia Quan sets, hah hah.

Well, here they are:

Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 1 (Kai Shan Quan - Open Mountain Fist form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 2 (Ying Zhang - Greeting Palm form) (means same as Lead the Way)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 3 (San Jian Zhu Ge - Three Recommendations for Zhu Ge )
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 4 (Chuan Xin Chui - Penetrate heart hammer form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 5 (Wu Fu - Five Husbands fist form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 6 (Di Pan Tui = Ground Level kicks form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 7 (Mei Hua Chui - Plum Flower Hammers form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 8 (Lian Huan - Continuous Links hammer form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 9 (Lian Huan - Continuous Links kicks form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 10 (Mei Fu Zhang - Ambush palm form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 11 (Pu Di Sha - Strike Ground Sand Form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 12 (Qin Di Gui Shan Men - Capture Enemy Return Mountain Gate form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 13 (has no name) ending movements.

By the way, Zhu Ge was a member of the Ming royal family that was hiding out there in Shaolin areas where the Kanjia was practiced. I think he was a little kid then.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Um, I meant to say there were 13 Kanjia Quan sets, hah hah.

Well, here they are:

Shaolin Kan Jia fist form (Kai Shan fist form 1)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 2 (Head on palm form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 3 (San Jian Zhu Ge)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 4 (crossing heart hammer form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 5 (Wu Fu fist form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 6 (Di Pan kicking form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 7 (Clubs hammer form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 8 (Lian Huan hammer form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 9 (Lian Huan kicking form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 10 (Waylaying palm form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 11 (Pu Di Sha Form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 12(Qin Di Gui Shan Men form)
Shaolin Kan Jia fist form 13

I really think this should be in the "discrepancy in Bei Shaolin history" thread but I have to address these supposed discrepancies somewhere so here we go. First of all, the names of the sets don't even seem close to me. Perhaps you could translate some of the names (San Jian Zhu Ge?) Here are some translations of the Bei Shaolin sets:
Shaolin #1 Open The Door (entering the gate)
Shaolin #2 Lead the Way (following step)
Shaolin #3 Riding the Horse (sit on the horse)
Shaolin #4 Chest Attacks (penetrating the heart)
Shaolin #5 Military Moves (martial practice)
Shaolin #6 Short Strikes (close fighting)
Shaolin #7 Plum Blossom (plum flower)
Shaolin #8 Three Palms within Eight Steps (uprooting step)
Shaolin #9 Continuous Links (connecting circles)
Shaolin #10 Standard Moves (the method)
So where are the similarities? The only English words I can see in common are with both of the 4th forms, but "crossing heart hammer form" still seems dissimilar from "penetrating the heart". I don't own the book, but the pictures and descriptions I've seen in the wushu manual "Shaolin Kan Jia Quan" don't seem similar enough to be directly related to Bei Shaolin either.

I can understand that there will always be an effort to find "missing links" between styles. Especially when there are so few historical documents to go on. But pure speculation is no substitute for the actual history. Based upon the evidence presented, I can still only conclude for myself that the Bei Shaolin sets were kept totally secret and they're not really related in structure to the Kan Jia Quan sets. During the time of the Qing Dynasty they were kept secret out of necessity since openly practicing or teaching martial arts was punishable by death for a time. Then we jump to the 20th century and the disastrous Cultural Revolution when all of the Bei Shaolin, Shaolin Longfist, and Shaolin Lohan masters had to either flee the country or completely hide the fact that they knew martial arts. How did Kan Jia Quan survive in Shandong completely unscathed while other masters were being imprisoned and shot on sight even? Even the Buddhist monks were humiliated, persecuted, and denounced. Many of them had to flee or hide. You're gonna tell me Shaolin kung fu survived completely intact after all of this?

[bawang]

about 200 out of 700 forms survived to today so there is a huge chunk of shaolin missing that might exists throughout china

i dont think shaolin lineage is important because shaolin learned 99% of their martial arts from the army and outside masters

[Royal Dragon]

it seems to me like styles are usually expanded on and not condensed. Tam Tui was expanded from 10 lines to 12 and so on for example.

Reply]
Styles are both expanded, and condensed over time. Sometimes one line is doing one, while another is doing the opposite, at the same time. Other times, a style may see both condensation, and expansion during different phases of it's existence.

A good example is the legend of Zhao Kunag Yin's style (known today as Tai Tzu Chang Chuan). The primary oral legend I have allways heard is that Zhao was an expert in a number of styles. Prior to entering the military, he condensed everything he knew, his most successful, or favorite techniques, into a single formal routine to create his style. So six different styles condensed into one set to make a new style.

He was famous for his Monkey style as well, and there is a Monkey set that goes with it, but it's actually a different style that parallels.

Later, Shaolin added 2 sets to that system, 32 posture Tai tzu Chang Chuan, and the long 6 section Da Hong Quan. So this one style alone has seen both condensations, AND expansions!

Chen style once had 5 forms, now it has 2. but some lines still have the original 5, and not the two we see today. So that style has both condensed in one area, but remained unaltered in others areas.

The thing to remember, is these styles were practiced all over, by many different groups all simultaneously. In each group, the style evolved and changed in it's own direction. Many styles changed so much they are hardly even recognizable to the original anymore. The Bei Shaolin 10 hand sets may be one such branch of the kanjiaquan. Other branches are perfectly preserved as if encapsulated in amber.

[GeneChing]

...and we didn't discuss BSL stuff at all. Sorry.

What we did discuss is China Songshan Shaolin Temple Day. The Tiger Claw Foundation and KungFuMagazine.com will be supporting this event. I'll update you on developments here or on the Shaolin Shows near SF thread.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

I'm actually looking forward to Shaolin Temple Day. The monks are supposed to perform in Union Square, is that right?

[Songshan]

In reference to my last post: I don't want anyone to think that the current monks aren't graceful and powerful martial artists. The techniques that they practice are definitely Shaolin techniques. I just feel that a lot of stuff that's considered to be authentic Shaolin has been influenced by certain teachers and coaches in one way or another. Even the movies have had way too much of an influence on what's considered authentic Shaolin! The rocking back and forth that's done in all of the Shaolin Mantis forms was, as far as I know, never done by any real Preying Mantis practitioners. Practitioners were only meant to mimic the insect so far. Every Shaolin Mantis form I've seen has the weird back and forth head swaying. This was exactly what was done in Jet Li's "The Shaolin Temple". So that pretty much means that these official Shaolin Mantis techniques came from a movie? That realization has made me wonder what else that is now currently practiced at the temple has been influenced by movies or entertainment.

Still, there are drills and exercises that seem very useful, like they can ideally fit into any Shaolin regimen. I'm not saying that all of what the Shaolin monks do is not completely authentic. I'm also not saying that what is found in Northern Shaolin is completely authentic. I just can't help thinking that, when it comes to styles like Northern Shaolin, there is just as much there that can give someone a well-rounded, truly authentic Shaolin curriculum. Shoot, I might even commit to learning the Kanjia Quan forms someday so that I could compare and contrast. I'm sure I could a lot out of them. I just can't seem to bring myself to thinking they are the prototypes for the 10 Bak Siu Lum forms though. In the oral and written traditions of Bak Siu Lum there is no mention of 12 sets. Maybe there are discrepancies as far as which particular monk or rebel brought it forth, but there's no mention that it came from 12 sets. When it comes to traditional CMA's, it seems to me like styles are usually expanded on and not condensed. Tam Tui was expanded from 10 lines to 12 and so on for example.

I feel there is a huge difference between demonstration/performance and "authentic" shaolin. What you referenced about the shaolin mantis is mostly for performance. I cannot for the life of me figure out why people think when modern shaolin monks do the preying mantis form they are saying that's THE authentic form? Or what the monks do on stage is THE 100 % traditional style? Of course it isn't.

As a matter of fact is you google northern preying mantis history you will find the name Wong Long as the founder.....nothing referenced to Shaolin temple. Look at Wing Chun. Yip Man is credited the founder and pioneer of this style but in reality it came from a buddhist nun. I guess my point is does it really matter that much if what a songshan shaolin student is doing compared to a BSL student is authentic?

[r.(shaolin)]

The dodging, head bobbing, circular strikes and random footwork that bawang mentions are characteristics found in Northern Shaolin.

This is very much a fundamental part of Shaolin martial arts. Evasion, dodging and removing the target augment the majority of defending and attacking methods of Shaolin. One can even say that this is one of key skills of the Shaolin style. Most of these methods involve the body core and head although evasion of the hands and feet are part of this skill as well. In many cases these are used as the sole method in defending or in counter attacking. Not touching the opponent's attack is considered superior to blocking, deflecting or even checking and trapping an attack. The saying "dodging punches (kicks and weapons) the waist moves like willow", "dodging punches (and weapons) head moves like ocean wave" is a very accurate description of Shaolin in both barehand fighting, weapon fighting and in particular visible in barehand vs weapon fighting. In I979 I wrote an article on this subject, part of which was published in Inside Kungfu 30 years ago.
r.

[GeneChing]

There will be a free performance at Union Square on March 21st. There will also be free lessons (qigong), a photo gallery, tea sampling and vegetarian cuisine. The Abbot will give a blessing at the opening and Leland Yee will be present too.

Sunday is a more formal performance at the San Jose Center for Performing Arts. Tickets for that are available here.

Hope to see you there!