Force Multipliers and their Forging

[sanjuro_ronin]

Phoenix-eye fists, dragon's head fist, panther/leopard fist, Lama's fist, the Sean Connery Presidio Thumb, etc,etc.

Force multipliers come in many shapes and sizes, no pun intended, and with them come a varied of training philosophies that can be summed up into to categories:

Forging and non-forging.

Some believe that one must forge/condition the tool, others are of the view that conditioning (at lest high level forging) is not needed, relying on "pinpoint precision" for the results.

I am of the forging school you can say.

As it is, I train/forge my PE fist and because I use a "thumb on top fist", I train my thumb knuckle too.
Typically I forge them on the IP bag and the hanging bag, also on the Heavy bag and some special drills on the medicine ball and hanging dummy.
And the makiwara of course, along with (for the PE fist) push-ups.

As for their use, I have used them a few times in sparring, though my partners tend not to like that, no one likes the feeling of knuckles into ribs and shoulders.
I tend to use them a bit in the ground work context, especially when in the guard.
Again, controlled and not full force ( I can drill the PE fist ALMOST at full force at this stage of development).
I have only started forging them as of the last year and a half.

Why do I bring this up now?

Good question....

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yesterday, a few buddies and I went for dinner to discuss all things Martial and a friend I had not seen in almost a year commented on my knuckle development ( the PE knuckles) and asked, "since when and what the F for" ??

So, naturally, the discussion went to wither it's of any use ( IP came after, but more on that later).
I demoed the PE on his forehead ( well, where else?) and on his ribs, lightly, and he was convinced in the sense of "it hurts and full force must kill, but...".
But what ? I asked.
Is it worth the time invloved?

An excellent question.

Now, my PE forging doesn't take up that much time, probably 5 mins of my whole training regime - 100 strikes each hand on the IP bag, a round on the hanging bag filled with sand, 1 round on the hanging IP bag, a round on the Heavy bag and some work on the medicine ball and hanging dummy, each round being about 1-2 mins.

But why do it?
His point was I already had above average striking power, why do this?

My example was what was shown to me when I decided to take on the forging process:
Conversation between me and Hung Kuen Sifu:

When I questioned the benefit, well, more like the time issue and the pain of the forging process and if it was worth it, My Sifu said, quite plainly, its like bringing brass knuckles to a fight, wouldn't they help?

Sure, but even the best PE is not a brass knuckle, I replied.

Correct, we can't harden the bones to that extent, however, as you know, bones are stronger than wood, even concrete to an extent, so, picture if you will a Dowel (tubular piece of wood, think "kubotan") being used in a fight, projectiong out of your fist, woudl it be an advantage to have?
Yes I said, but still...a PE fist is not a "kubotan".
No, he said, but it can be.

See this chicken bone? ( we were eating at the time), is it stronger than your hand bones?
No I said.
Yet...how does this feel?
At this point he drills me with the bone in my shoulder and takes out my arm and leaves a bruise on that shoulder for a few days and makes it hard to move it for days.
I get the point, I said.
Do you?
He was not convinced.
If you were to attack me and I had this chicken bone and was to strike you with it over and over, in your ribs, neck, temple, anywhere really, would it hurt?
Yes I said.
But woudl it stop you?
I don't think so.
Why he asked?
Well, pain is fleeting, in a fight pain is an "after thought", what stops people in a fight isn't pain, ist trauma.
Very good he said, get me the yellow pages...
I should have know better...
As I held the yellow pages to my chest he continued:
In a real fight, you would not just stand there and let me hit you, not to worry, In a real fight I would not just use my PE fist for one strike, nevertheless, for you to understand the incapacitating effect I think this will do fine, and remember, the PE fist is best as a finisher...
He then drilled my in the chest, through the yellow pages, with his PE fist.

....

And we come full circle...

[lianweizhi]

I personally think forging is very important. In CLF, our primary straight punch (chop choy) is executed using a panther fist. In addition to requiring conditioning of the knuckles (something I haven't done enough of), it's also very important to ensure that your wrist and third knuckle joints can take the impact. I've trained to do so by doing pushups and handstand pushups on my panther fists, and still, on the heavy bags, sometimes my panther fist will collapse.

There is a Chinese saying, "Lian quan bu lian gong, dao lao yi chang kong, essentially translates to "Practicing technique without practicing force, to old age is a waste," or something like that. Granted, the second half goes "Lian gong bu lian quan, gong fu bu qi quan", or "Practicing force without practicing technique, your kung fu is incomplete." In any case, the point is, ideally, you should emphasize both force and power generation as well as technique.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree, not sure how anyone can advocate a "specialty fist" without advocating its development as a tool.
I remember reading Gozo Shioda's "dynamic Aikido" ( Yoshinkan) and he advocated the "tempering" of the hands because, "there is no comparison between the tempered and un-tempered hand".

[Vash]

I've been using the Motobu Choki SHoken for a while ('cept I use a heavy bag, not a makiwara board).

I push the bag with my index finger bent at 90 degrees, strengthening the intrinsic muscles of the hand. On occassion, I test the strike with a full shoken. I can hit a sand-bag full force with either had and not hurt myself. I'm not to where I can punch through it, though.

Didn't lkfmdc have a finger strengthening exercise using fishing weights?

[Toby]

We use a fist similar to phoenix-eye. We forge it too. Mine's not strong enough by a long shot and although I currently view it as low-percentage I have high hopes for it in time. A few of my seniors can use it full speed, full power. I'm sure there are some that can't. I can't but I hope to be able to some day since it seems like a pretty devastating weapon vs. a normal fist.