Cung Li vs. Frank Shamrock

[Lucas]

Everyone fights a bit differently. It isnt about where someones strengths or weaknesses are.

It is about the end result.

Cung may not have what some would consider great stand up. Many make this assertation based on the techniques seen in his fights. IMO, thats a p!ss poor way to review ones stand up game.

Technique is not the end all be all. It is one element of a great fighter. I have not had the opportunity to have Cung Le punch or kick me, but I bet it hurts. Sounds like decent tech to me if thats the case.

If Cung Le DOES in fact fall short on a technical aspect, its is quite obvious he makes up for it in other ways.

He baits people very very well, his distance and timing are superb. It is obvious to anyone who watches him fight. Its a no brainer to see these elements really.

So in an over all package, the man has the skills, puts them to the test, and produces better results than most. I'm willing to bet, better than any one on this board that is ridiculing him. IF thats not the case. prove it. I'll even wager that his stand up game is better than most of the people talking down. How many of you can pull of a roundhouse to spinning backfist on Frank Shamrock? Probably none. Bad stand up? Try context.

At what point does he get the recognition as a great fighter? 20 undefeated fights I guess dont count.....

People just love to talk down on others on the internet. Why? No reprocusions. No validation required. And they feel better about themselves if they can rip apart someone that makes them look like manure comparitively.

I dont like Frank Shamrock, I think hes a C0cky As$. But I dont talk down on his game.

Its better than mine.

[SoCo KungFu]

Everyone fights a bit differently. It isnt about where someones strengths or weaknesses are.

It is about the end result.

Cung may not have what some would consider great stand up. Many make this assertation based on the techniques seen in his fights. IMO, thats a p!ss poor way to review ones stand up game.

Technique is not the end all be all. It is one element of a great fighter. I have not had the opportunity to have Cung Le punch or kick me, but I bet it hurts. Sounds like decent tech to me if thats the case.

If Cung Le DOES in fact fall short on a technical aspect, its is quite obvious he makes up for it in other ways.

He baits people very very well, his distance and timing are superb. It is obvious to anyone who watches him fight. Its a no brainer to see these elements really.

So in an over all package, the man has the skills, puts them to the test, and produces better results than most. I'm willing to bet, better than any one on this board that is ridiculing him. IF thats not the case. prove it. I'll even wager that his stand up game is better than most of the people talking down. How many of you can pull of a roundhouse to spinning backfist on Frank Shamrock? Probably none. Bad stand up? Try context.

At what point does he get the recognition as a great fighter? 20 undefeated fights I guess dont count.....

People just love to talk down on others on the internet. Why? No reprocusions. No validation required. And they feel better about themselves if they can rip apart someone that makes them look like manure comparitively.

I dont like Frank Shamrock, I think hes a C0cky As$. But I dont talk down on his game.

Its better than mine.

Hell yeah dude...

The thing I think I like most about watching Cung fight is that it helps me form a context. What I mean is, its nice and great to see the MMA fights and watch the MT guys do things how they do. But lets face it kung fu while also being a stand up art, has some differences. And yeah I know there have been arguements and flames aplenty on its not the style its not the tech its the fighter and all that...

But, how many people in MMA mainstream use the half the kicks any of us learn in kung fu? That same question could be asked about a lot of techniques and in the end yes the answer will boil down to effectiveness of the tech and more importantly the effectiveness of the training regimen used to work said tech. But Cung (regardless of wherever the heck he learned his stuff from) uses a lot of those things. Like the side kick, esp. the side kick. I don't care if its TKD, tang soo do, kung fu, chop suey chopstick style. We all learn the side kick, front kick etc. Its just cool to see a guy using them, and with effect. And for me it gives me somebody to watch, to check his ranges and his strategy and be like, dang I could work some of that into my training! Instead of doing the same jab jab cross knee shoot combo that everybody and their brothers cousins midget girlfriend do...not that its not a great combo...its just something more akin to what I started off with in kung fu, where ever place it came from....know what I mean?

[Lucas]

know what I mean?

Fully.

TKD is still a TMA IMO, even if you are talking about Olympic sport style. Dirivitives you know.

Those sidekicks arent anything BUT TMA.

Thai Boxing is like this too. Its just that people only pull the techniques they THINK are workable. Funnything is, they all work, if you can MAKE them work.

You have to MAKE every technique work.

Strategy strategy strategy.

[mkriii]

Yeah Cung Le's ground game is untested...big F'n deal...
I'm sick of hearing how that somehow lessens him as a fighter. Cung's plan was to do standup..he stuck to his game plan as that has been working for him for 6 MMA fights now. If it was Chuck Liddel everyone would be like..."dang that guy is a beast!" Its not Cung's responsibility to have to prove his ground (which him being not just a professional fighter, but a straight professional; I'm willing to bet is not half bad). Its his opponent's responsibility to push Cung into that situation. Something Frank simply didn't do. The failure is on Frank, not Cung.

I couldn't agree with this more. If your winning with what your doing then why try to do something new like grappling and risk losing? Cung Li is a great kick IMO and thats what he stuck to and won. Regardless of his striking ability he still won the fight and thats what counts in the end.....no thats not right, its about who makes the most money in the end, not who wins. Although the one who wins usually gets the most money.....lol. My hats off to Cung Li for a good fight. I never liked Frank or his brother Ken that much anyways, especially when Ken went to WWE for a brief period. What a joke that was.

[David Jamieson]

Shamrocks SU game as good as Cung's?

no f-ing way.
Shamrock is well rounded as a fighter, but his kicks are no where near as powerful or as well developed as Cung's ergo, his standup is not equal to.

[GeneChing]

Cung Le Sanshous Frank Shamrock submitted for your approval.

[sanjuro_ronin]

"Victory for all martial arts", Cung is going into politics eh?

[GeneChing]

I was by Cung Le's new gym this morning. He let us check out the Strikeforce Middleweight Championship Belt. Were those real diamonds? They certainly had a lot of fire in them. The belt is spectacular and much heavier than it looks.

[mkriii]

So how big is the gym and what kind of training equipment does it have? I bet its an awesome gym to work out in.

[GeneChing]

They don't even have a sign up. Ironically, it's right across the street from a new traditional kung fu school. Bummer for them.

The new facility is gorgeous. It has a ton of bags and pads of all sorts, weightlifting and training equipment, and a cage. It's really impressive, but given Cung's recent successes, we'd expect no less.

[mkriii]

Sounds like a great facility. Wish I could go by to see what it looks like. I can't believe that some people are still trying to say that the match between him and Shamrock was fixed. I just don't believe that it was.

[mawali]

Cung Le needs to develop his 'mano a mano' game (standup) because Shamrock's flurry of boxing assaults seemed to always put Cung on defensive despite his excellent shuaijiao/sanshou foot game!
There were at least 2 instances when Cung kicked high enough for Frank to go under and jam the leg or unbalance him (Le)!

[1bad65]

I for one only said I was waiting to hear confirmation of an injury. And I said that was because EliteXC is VERY shady in my opinion.

And yes, it was a legit fight that Le won by breaking Frank's arm. I picked Frank and I was wrong. Props to Cung Le.

[MysticNinjaJay]

One thing about this fight that is bothering me though, well not so much the fight but all the peanut gallery comments about it....

Yeah Cung Le's ground game is untested...big F'n deal...
I'm sick of hearing how that somehow lessens him as a fighter. Cung's plan was to do standup..he stuck to his game plan as that has been working for him for 6 MMA fights now. If it was Chuck Liddel everyone would be like..."dang that guy is a beast!" Its not Cung's responsibility to have to prove his ground (which him being not just a professional fighter, but a straight professional; I'm willing to bet is not half bad). Its his opponent's responsibility to push Cung into that situation. Something Frank simply didn't do. The failure is on Frank, not Cung.

Cung Le gets a lot of hate from the MMA community for various reasons. There is definitely a lot of bias against him. One of the reasons is that he is not viewed as an orthodox MMA fighter and there is alot of skepticism about how well he can adapt to the sport.

Grappling is a big part of the sport and Cung began training extensively in Jiu-Jitsu shortly before starting the sport. The difference between Liddell and Cung is that Liddell's takedown defense has been proven against excellent grapplers. Cung hasn't yet faced a grappler that can test his defense both from the takedown and from his back. I very much hope he has a takedown defense that rivals Liddell's because if his opponents can't get him to his back and keep him there they will be forced to stand. His All-American Collegiate Wrestling background and success in San Shou, where defense of the takedown is an essential skill, indicates that he has potential. If so that's very promising for his MMA career because he will have few weaknesses.

My problem with Cung is (be advised that I am basing it on his most recent fight with Frank) the fact that he is said to be this amazing stand up fighter but in reality he is not. Don't get me wrong, he has great kicks(as i have said b4) but not much else. I suppose that since he is standing and not sitting while he does so means that he has great stand up but I for one dont agree......

The only real criticism you made was against his punches. His speed, accuracy, timing and combinations meet qualities I see in a great standup fighter. He has won every MMA fight by KO or TKO and 3 of 6 came by way of punches, 2 of them in the first round so I'd say his hands are pretty good despite his unorthodox stance.

What matters in a fight is that you win while receiving little damage. This is what Cung Le does (he also has excellent defense) and he does it by standing so I definitely disagree with you.

But back OT, Cung has always been a mixed martial artist at heart. He's studied many different styles and continues to explore with his training and sharpen his skills. Beyond sanshou and MMA, he has also fought Draka and in the Shidokan. Bottom line, he loves to fight. What' makes him very interesting to us is that he's done a lot of fighting in sanshou and has remained at the forefront of that sport in America. It was thrilling to see him apply sanshou tactics in MMA, a real testament to the efficaciousness of the style. All CMA aficionados should be pleased and proud.

I agree and see no reason for people to downplay Cung Le's roots in Chinese Martial Arts. His introduction to Martial Arts was studying Vietnamese Kung Fu at a very young age. He went on to master the discipline and become an instructor for his master's students.

Since then he's competed in Tae Kwon Do, Wrestling, Shidokan, San Shou etc. but he has never abandoned his roots. He's a Martial Artist and an athlete. At the end of his first MMA fight he declared that he will always be a San Shou fighter and vows to use San Shou in MMA. He has stuck to his word. Fans of CMA and Martial Arts in general should be proud.

[omarthefish]

SoCo, this problem people have with Cung Li on this forum stems from the fact that some TCMA fanatics use Cung's accoplishments to bolster thier own oppinions about TCMA. Which is just goofy...

The exact same thing can be said about MMA fanatics and their idols.

What's your point?