center of gravity

[Nick Forrer]

Hi Norrin!

or this guy does he has it?
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=M2c5OvTpGlM

---Just from this video clip...I would say no. During Chi Sao he is using arms and good stepping, but he never seems to press from the hips. Which is interesting since both are WSL students!

When I chi saued with him WKL used the KWA to root (i.e. to absorb force) but not to press (i.e. to issue force). To press he used the arms but without any tension in his arms or shoulders - so in this method the kwa supports and stabalises the body but is not the prime mover. This difference is hard to put into words but very easy to show.

Both methods are good and both work if you want to uproot someone. I have started to work with the second method more recently after spending a while on the first.

[KPM]

When I chi saued with him WKL used the KWA to root (i.e. to absorb force) but not to press (i.e. to issue force). To press he used the arms but without any tension in his arms or shoulders - so in this method the kwa supports and stabalises the body but is not the prime mover. This difference is hard to put into words but very easy to show.

Both methods are good and both work if you want to uproot someone. I have started to work with the second method more recently after spending a while on the first.

Hi Nick!

That's a good way to put it.....stable Kwa to root and absorb, dynamic kwa to issue force.

[YungChun]

iliketo askallof you aquestion about this. how do you find and train your center of gravity? i am intreestedin thisbecause i find a lot of m arts are using this COG to apply power to their opponent,like aikido, tai chi, bagua, hsing i and others. i foundthat there are some out therewho areable to use this in wing chun also like barry lee for example. so how do u guys train this??

greetings bernd

The COG or center of mass is aligned via the stances and mechanics in order to project that energy into the opponent's COG, generally, in order to disrupt and break his ability to do same. Like a high pressure water hose blowing them down (backward) or you could also absorb, redirect and draw them in forward.

The qwa in the conventional sense does seem to come out when using the biu ma stepping as opposed to the bik ma stepping.. The idea of short bridge qua is interesting, is there some reference to this in CMA in general?

[Grilo]

If you really want to find your own center of gravity, loose it first. Do everything in your power to fall over in every situation. I have trained a lot of non traditional martial arts, mostly Capoeira from Brazil. In their art center of gravity is key as about 50% of the art is on your hands or spinning. Wing Chun and other Kung fus' have similar training with the Plum Blossom Flowers. You do the movements on the plum blossoms to develop your COG. I suggest this or hand stands, cart wheels, frog stands, running on logs, and balancing, then falling. After finding your COG in non traditional methods apply it to Wing Chun with the advice in the rest of this thread. It is hard to talk about your COG if you have never been pushed over and dont know where it is. I agree with Kenton you need to hit something so that you know how your COG shifts in relation to the transfer of energy and the other movements of Wing Chun. Other things I have read suggest hitting a wall bag. If you do not have control of your stance or COG the force of your punch will be transfered back into you and you will fall over. Patience, Time, Practice and Repetition will all help you.

these are just my opinions on COG having had someone kick me while in a handstand makes you aware of your COG really quickly and how to transfer your COG after the hit into movements to counter attack.

[norrin]

for your comments.
do you think there is apossibility to train themuscles which are or could be moving the COG. do you think this guy has a good control over his COG
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=l_gmMq...eature=related
or is it truly a fake what he does. i think he is just using his body from his feet to his navel to transmit the power to his hands and when you push against him he is just changing the leg fom where he is taking the groundpath or what do you think.
i train this kind of powertransmitting--is it the right word-sorry for my english--
through pressing and pulling with my legs or/and waist against a unmovable target like a door or something but i am not sure if i am using the right muscles(internal instead of external-i mean am i just training my legs nad waist or the muscles which could make me able to move my COG without moving my body from one side to another or so. understand my question or ???
greets bernd

[cjurakpt]

I found that fascinating about S2 being where a moving person's COG is. Thanks for sharing. This, again, backs up why L5-S1/S1-S2 joints are always the chief complaint for back pain. In my world, the Kidney energy governs the lower back, so I generally just treat Urinary Bladder 23 (Back Transporting Point of Kidney) @ L2.

I'm not sure I understand what you are suggesting here - that because the COG is located in front of S2 that people have more pain at L5/S1 & S1/S2 than other areas of the low back, or that they have the root of their dysfunction at L5/S1 & S1/S2 more so than in other areas when they complain of LBP?

first off, I wouldn't agree that the "chief complaint" for LBP is at LSJ or lower - sacroiliac pain is one common form of LBP, but I see just as many people c/o pain in mid/lower lumbar region (L3-5)

second, I would suggest that the "root" of much LBP has more to do with hip joint and pelvic floor restrictions than S2, although they do reflect up into that area often (to wit, the counterstrain technique for releasing S2 basically puts pelvic floor on slack); which certainly relates to ideas about usage of the kwa, specifically the degree of lymphatic congestion most people have at inguinal crease (due to lack of suppleness in the pelvis in general), leading to a congested hip joint and all the undesirable sequelae that follow; in fact, in your example, you mention that to deal with pain at L5 to S2 you treat L2 - which makes sense, because many people are hypomobile at L2, and tend to be hypermobile at LSJ (bearing in mind, the things that don't move are not the ones that hurt, it's the areas that move too much...)

however, fundamentally, I don't really see why the location of the COG at the level of S2 (and that is a very approximate location, because it's also anterior to it) has any direct impact per se on how, why or where specifically people get LBP, with the exception that when we were quadrupeds, our COG was much different, and being in quadruped removes a large number of biomechanical and physiological stresses that contribute to LBP...meaning that one could argue the very fact that we are bipeds is a precipitating factor for LB dysfunction...

[couch]

I'm not sure I understand what you are suggesting here - that because the COG is located in front of S2 that people have more pain at L5/S1 & S1/S2 than other areas of the low back, or that they have the root of their dysfunction at L5/S1 & S1/S2 more so than in other areas when they complain of LBP?

first off, I wouldn't agree that the "chief complaint" for LBP is at LSJ or lower - sacroiliac pain is one common form of LBP, but I see just as many people c/o pain in mid/lower lumbar region (L3-5)

second, I would suggest that the "root" of much LBP has more to do with hip joint and pelvic floor restrictions than S2, although they do reflect up into that area often (to wit, the counterstrain technique for releasing S2 basically puts pelvic floor on slack); which certainly relates to ideas about usage of the kwa, specifically the degree of lymphatic congestion most people have at inguinal crease (due to lack of suppleness in the pelvis in general), leading to a congested hip joint and all the undesirable sequelae that follow; in fact, in your example, you mention that to deal with pain at L5 to S2 you treat L2 - which makes sense, because many people are hypomobile at L2, and tend to be hypermobile at LSJ (bearing in mind, the things that don't move are not the ones that hurt, it's the areas that move too much...)

however, fundamentally, I don't really see why the location of the COG at the level of S2 (and that is a very approximate location, because it's also anterior to it) has any direct impact per se on how, why or where specifically people get LBP, with the exception that when we were quadrupeds, our COG was much different, and being in quadruped removes a large number of biomechanical and physiological stresses that contribute to LBP...meaning that one could argue the very fact that we are bipeds is a precipitating factor for LB dysfunction...

Well...

To an Oriental medicine man such as myself (or acupunk for short), it's just a Kidney Qi/Yin/Yang deficiency anyways. ShenShu all the way (UB23 located 1.5 anatomical inches from L2).



PS What's your background?

[cjurakpt]

Well...

To an Oriental medicine man such as myself (or acupunk for short), it's just a Kidney Qi/Yin/Yang deficiency anyways. ShenShu all the way (UB23 located 1.5 anatomical inches from L2).

of course, one can work successfully from whatever paradigm in which one operates, but the bottom line is that there are "concrete" structural interrelationships in the body that exist and that influence each other regardless of the modality in question: for example, if pelvic floor is living in chronic excess tension on one side (for any number of reasons: direct trauma, organ prolapse, repetitive strain injury due to "poor" postural mechanics) it will exert an asymmetrical pull on the sacrum, leading to further biomechanical / physiological imbalances locally and globally; an orthopedic PT might go right to pelvic, and look to directly release trigger points in the pelvic floor musculature; TCM on the other hand, without looking at pelvic floor directly, will recognize a particular set of signs / symptoms and characterize it as a certain type of pattern, and then treat according to its own internally consistent paradigm by needling certain areas that will effect in some way what is going on at pelvic floor and rebalance the system, leading to to resolution, all the while not necessarily being concerned with the specifics of the biomechanics; in both cases, the actual change that would occur at pelvic floor is the same: decreased aberrant muscle tone; point is, you can treat something from a variety of different perspectives, but what actually happens / changes in the body to resolve a certain issue will be the same; as such, whereas you needle L2 because it fits into TCM 's paradigm in context of Kidney deficiency, an orthopedic PT might treat it manually because it's the least mobile / symmetrical segment: but in both cases the structural change are the same: decrease aberrant muscle tone locally, increase blood supply, more mobility, etc., and with all the benefits of this change moving through the system (of course, TCM will be infinitely more adept at systematically tracking those changes as they ripple through into other body systems, whereas an ortho PT would begin and end with the local structure, without giving much attention to the fact that someone's TCM Kidney related functions would improve as well)

PS What's your background?

PT by license, mostly osteopathic approach for manual / qigong for movement

still doesn't answer my question re: your statement about COG...

[Liddel]

From what ive read your center of gravity and the motors that drive it are forged in the whom.

Earths gravity makes you develope your sence for up and down etc.

Tests on rats in orbit have proved that had your mother spent most of her pregnancy in space and returned to earth to give birth your brain wouldnt be able to tell the difference between up and down.

Every person able to walk has some control over COG right ?
for the specific use of staying upright and walking. So IMO -

In a fighting / Kung Fu context, training in a system teaches you to apply your awareness and use of balance/COG for a specific use.

For my VT its a very important contributing factor for putting the theory of VT center line concept into practice/application.

How do i find and train my COG ?

IMO the awareness is taught in SLT CK and BJ. And the application is taught in chi sao all the way to sparring / fighting through actual use of the VT tool box.

The old saying - No horse no kung fu - might as well be - No COG no kung fu IMHO. Its something thats inherent in the training and not something i isolate to improve on...its always partnered in training with actions of VT for a specific use in fighting.

Thats my rant, short and as sweet as i can make it

DREW

[cjurakpt]

From what ive read your center of gravity and the motors that drive it are forged in the whom.

Earths gravity makes you develope your sence for up and down etc.

Tests on rats in orbit have proved that had your mother spent most of her pregnancy in space and returned to earth to give birth your brain wouldnt be able to tell the difference between up and down.

sort of; while the apparatus that contributes to this awareness is certainly developed, functional usage of it is developed during post partum development, especially during the first few years of life; otherwise, you would expect see large disparities in gravitational awareness between babies who were born "normally" (head down) and those who were breech at term (head up), and there is no difference in the presence of active functional head righting reflexes (basically the innate sense to keep your eyes level with the horizon line) between these two situations; but also, righting reflexes are just the start in terms of gravitational orientation: it is a on-going process that involves numerous other factors that come into play as one developes over the first several years of life;

basically, in the healthy individual, there are 3 main systems that maintain our COG w/in our base of support (BOS); in order of speed of response, the 1st is the proprioceptive system, which is the muscle's internal sense of their position in space and rate of change of that position; 2nd is the visual system which is slightly slower, but is fast enough to act as a relaible source, especially when proprioceptive sense is under utilized (which it is in most people - to wit, most people are ok standing on one foot or an unstable surface with their eyes open, but cannot at all with eyes closed); the 3rd is you inner ear / vestibular system, which is actually much slower than the first two, and has more to do with reflexive head-righting responses and adaptation to changes over a longer period of time (e.g. - being on dry land versus on a boat, hence the delay in getting one's sea legs)

on a side note, there are certainly ramifications when someone's vestibular system doesn't work well, even if the proprioceptive system and visual system are fine, resulting in serious balance disorders; furthermore, you can have a situation where all three are not working well, leading to a lot of the gross motor developmental delays we see going on with kids these days

why this is important for MA, especially in trapping range, is that typically it is the fastest sense, proprioception, that is trained, meaning that the way one responds to disruption of one's COG can be trained to be faster and more accurate because this system can become more aware if trained specifically (hence the use of the drill of trapping blindfolded, because it focuses all awareness on body sense, as opposed to the slightly out of sync combination of that and vision, which is always a tiny bit behind); but at the same time this can be used against someone by sending "decoy" messages, in terms of giving their proprioceptive system incorrect information as to where the force is coming from and the direction it is going (this is a big piece for push hands as well);

[drleungjohn]

Very Nicely said-especially the last paragraph!

[Liddel]

sort of; while the apparatus that contributes to this awareness is certainly developed, functional usage of it is developed during post partum development, especially during the first few years of life

Oh i agree, and that makes obvious sence to me.

I find the whole thing quite interesting and the context in which i was learning about it was related to man having to travel large distances in space. i.e trip to mars etc.

I saw a test in which baby mice were dropped upsidedown into a container of water, most earth born mice as they sunk orientated thier bodies, hitting the bottom of the container feet down. The Mice who's mothers had been in space for the majority of thier preganacy never turned in the water, hitting the bottom with thier backs.

It was a very interesting Doco
And your post cjurakpt was a mind opener for me too, nice.

What do you think about my POV of it in terms of training. Do we really train COG in isolation ?

Ive done drills where you stand very straight, someone pushes you really hard and you fall into your stance.....which i guess could be considered to be balance and COG/COM type training

Thats about as isolated as i think i get off the top of my head......

DREW

[cjurakpt]

What do you think about my POV of it in terms of training. Do we really train COG in isolation ?

no, I agree with you, you can't "isolate" it, that makes no sense really; because while the COG may be one theoretical spot (that is shifting around anyway as we move), what you are really training is balance reactions, mostly from a proprioceptive perspective; balance reactions take place in 3 main ways: ankle strategy, hip strategy and stepping strategy; an ankle strategy involves recruiting the musculature at the ankle to correct for small perturbations in the COG when standing with a normal base of support (BOS), such in normal standing / walking; as such, this is a very energy efficient strategy, and also very time efficient, because the response is almost immediate and also less chance of overcorrection; however, if the COG is moving out of the BOS at too great a velocity or has already moved too far before the ankle musculature can work, then the lever arm for these muscles becomes too long and you resort to #2, hip strategy - which is what you see when people slide on ice and start leaning their torso one way or another to counterbalance what the hips are doing; this is of course more energy consumptive, less precise, more prone to overcorrection and hardly desirable in normal activity or MA; however, if you are already starting from a wide stance, you are actually using this to resist COG displacement; finally, #3 is to take a step when you can't use a hip strategy, which is fine if it's a controlled step, but if not can lead to a nice fall, of course; in MA, i think a lot of what we do is to try to get people to do #2 beyond the parameters of their establish stance, or #3, but taking advantage of them while they are in the midst of it and tripping / throwing them

BTW, this is all predicated on not using your arms / hands to grab onto something, which, even if you do with one finger, completely changes the entire muscle firing sequence when your COG is disturbed, from feet up to hands down, so if you are holding onto an opponent it becomes a combination of strategies

as far as training this, i think that again, you don't "train" COG in isolation - you train the postural system to respond to COG displacement more efficiently and consistently; so you could train a stepping strategy as you describe in terms of being in regular standing, getting pushed and landing in a stance, which is fine, but you would want to increase the degree of "interference" at some point, so trying that same drill while the person keeps coming, or holds you, or tries to sweep you while you have one foot in the air, that sort of thing, which is really just a step away from actual sparring anyway...

or you could train on floors slicked with oil while you avoid swinging sandbags (wait, I think I've seen that somewhere before...)

[cjurakpt]

I saw a test in which baby mice were dropped upsidedown into a container of water, most earth born mice as they sunk orientated thier bodies, hitting the bottom of the container feet down. The Mice who's mothers had been in space for the majority of thier preganacy never turned in the water, hitting the bottom with thier backs.

ok, so that is demonstrating a lack of head / body righting reactions, which is reflexivly mediated at least in part by the vestibular system (you might have seen the same thing if they just dropped the mic in the air as well - the water gives the mice more time to respond actually); the implication here is that regardless of in utero fetal position (regular or breech), the vestibular system develops and organizes appropriately as long as it has some sort of gravitational reference, as opposed to the mice where they had no reference point at all...interesting...

[cjurakpt]

ok, reading what some others have written, a few ideas re: absorption and re-issuing of power: in a general sense, I think it has to do with efficient transmission of forces (mostly ground reaction force - GRF) through the body structure, in terms of both relatively passive transfer via the connective tissue system (CTS) and balanced coordination via the neuromuscular system (NMS);

to address the issues of muscle first: if you don't fire muscles you can't move, stand up, do anything; so i disagree when people say that there was no muscle fore, muscle tension, etc. involved in a movement; what happens is that first, the muscle function is internally integrated - in other words, the firing patterns used by a given individual are so smooth and coordinated and not in conflict in terms of their agonist / antagonist force couples (e.g. - you don't simultaneously fire your biceps and triceps) that it seems like they aren't doing anything with muscular force; second, those firing patterns are in sync with the breathing apparatus (also muscular), and also ride along at the same time with the external forces traveling via the CTS;
as far as the CTS, it is an elastic matrix which compresses discontinuously and elongates continuously; in other words, when force comes into the CTS, acts like millions of tiny springs all oriented in different directions to absorb / store / dissipate forces without damage to the tissues; when it is stretched / or when it recoils back out, it sends the forces continuously through the matrix, meaning that the stored up discontinuous energy can exit along the same path - hence, IMHO, the feeling during push hands / chi sao that someone "dissolved" your attack / push, and then all of a sudden, out of "nowhere" they dumped it back onto you - the inherent nature of the CTS supports this sort of phenomenon, so when you learn how to harness it via the NMS acting in concert with it, you are taking advantage of the intrinsic physiology;

now, one can do this with both an opponent's force, bt also independently - so if you are standing alone, you can "kick start" this by using a deep breathe as an ignition: the respiratory diaphragm descends during inhalation, which "pushes" down the lower torso and legs into the floor; this generates a small GRF, which you then "allow" to thrust upwards, and if it's "correct", you get that feeling like a) you've just had your body filled up with something at the CTS level, and also you feel like the cranium is "floating" on top of the spine (my personal experience at least);

this, i believe is what the "peng" feeling in taiji is all about, specifically, the expressive aspect of this; conversely, I think that "sung" is the absorption aspect, but the two operate interdependently (certainly this principle applies to all arts, BTW, I'm just using taiji terms); the use of the kwa is certainly important here, because it's the place where the rootedness of the legs meets the lightness of the torso - a balance zone of sorts, and which is why if you don't have good awareness / suppleness in this zone, you are at a relative disadvantage to someone who does; so what someone said earlier about a stable kwa to absorb and a mobile one to issue power, yes, that's for sure, although within the stability there is movement and within the mobility there is stability...

to train this, one can work independently to increase innate awareness, or with a partner to increase variability; I don't think one has to necessarily follow the other, an in fact each can act a a reference to the other, giving more detailed feedback as one progresses (in other words, one learns about others by watching oneself, and learns about oneself via the reactions of others)