Japanese Wing Chun?

[Matrix]

May I be so bold as to suggest that Biu Jee has more to do with a level of power and intensity that you bring to the game as opposed to specific 'techniques' or a series of predefined movements that we call a form. So when Lee Chiang Po says "The point I was trying to make I guess is that when I am threatened I will immediately use Bil Jee." I think of that as meaning to bringing relaxed power to the centerline with speed and precision, regardless of the hand in question.

Bill

[couch]

May I be so bold as to suggest that Biu Jee has more to do with a level of power and intensity that you bring to the game as opposed to specific 'techniques' or a series of predefined movements that we call a form. So when Lee Chiang Po says "The point I was trying to make I guess is that when I am threatened I will immediately use Bil Jee." I think of that as meaning to bringing relaxed power to the centerline with speed and precision, regardless of the hand in question.

Bill

This is really interesting. I had a conversation with my teacher about this a time ago.

Do you (Bill and others) see the BJ being taught as the only form that has "Ging" or relaxed power? In the way I was originally taught, that precision/relaxed power/etc was introducted in the last form because it takes such a long time to cultivate other things.

After much research into "older" family systems, my Sifu found that in their "versions," they had that Ging, etc, in the forms from the get-go. So after that, it was a free-for-all! LOL

Thoughts?

Kenton

[tjwingchun]

My view is that it is only after the length of time it takes to learn Biu Gee that noticable "ging" will be developed, but once that is achieved it should be present in ALL the forms and every technique.

So it is not a specific knowledge saved and taught in Biu Gee, merely the natural progression of individual development that occurs coincidently when the system is taught in the correct timeframe.

Some hold back teaching Chum Kiu and Biu Gee for anything up to and over 10 years (which to me is criminal but I know it happens) and you find that thoes students who only have Siu Lim Tau to work with have still developed significant "ging" in their punches and basic techniques.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_Fb0Z4X_8Uk

This footage is for showing the individual movements of the form and not a demonstration of it flowing, which is why it is more robotic and defined rather than fluid with "intent".

I have said for many years that I use ALL of my forms in EVERY technique I perform, they are not separate, each move of the form teaches about a different muscle group and directional energy that can be utilised in a variety of ways, what dictates how a technique looks from the outside is not the part of a form that it is from but the circumstances that necessitate its use.

[Matrix]

After much research into "older" family systems, my Sifu found that in their "versions," they had that Ging, etc, in the forms from the get-go. So after that, it was a free-for-all! LOL

I see it as a progression. No point in trying to teach someone to sprint when they can't even walk yet. At some point all the forms become one. So that your Biu Jee is in your SLT, CK and dummy etc. and vice versa. Once the circle has been completed it may be hard to tell where it started and where it ends - if that really matters.

Bill

[KPM]

Do you (Bill and others) see the BJ being taught as the only form that has "Ging" or relaxed power? In the way I was originally taught, that precision/relaxed power/etc was introducted in the last form because it takes such a long time to cultivate other things.

Not just "no", but "heck no"! Anyone that doesn't teach the expression of "ging" until Biu Jee level is holding out on you! I agree with Bill, its a progression. SNT is learned first standing perfectly still and moving the arms. But as the student gets better and learns good structure he starts using his whole body in SNT even though his feet don't move. At least that's the way I do it and teach it!

[couch]

Cool. I'm picking up what you're laying down.

Thanks, guys!

[Lee Chiang Po]

Out of curiousity, what are the different motors driving each action that would make one more powerful than the other ?

DREW

If I can explain better, the chop is a sweep or a swinging action where the edge of the hand strikes a target. The power can be very good with a very strong person and if they have a very good swing going, but the hand move I was speaking of is not a sweep or swing at all, but a forward thrust as in a finger stab, except that the fingers do not make contact, but rather the chopping edge of the hand. It can be extremely powerful as you can actually place your entire weight behind it rather than the momentum of an arm. If the action is quick you can add to this weight and impact. That is about the best I can explain it I think.
When I first started my training I was the youngest boy in the family and so had to train with 2 girls. Our dad would watch and ask the older boys and girls what they thought. If they felt I was ready they would teach me another segment of the forms. They would all have to agree first. The first thing I did in the mornings was to go to the bathroom and throw cold water in my face to wake up and start doing the Sil Lim. I would do it as many as 30 times in a day. Slow, faster, and faster. I had to maintain the same focus and structure fast as when slow. Then one day I moved up to the Chum Kil form. That took much longer. And as I was learning it, I would also do the moves on the Jong. I called him Mooky man. Each segment was learned and trained until I was doing it well enough that all would agree, then move to the next.
I went and watched the youtube videos that were posted, and was amazed at the number of people that were viewing them. Are all these people Wing Chunners?

[Armin]

Hi!

We had teh same question some years ago ... try Eishunken on google.

Additionally there seems to be another, well, style of Wing Chun in Japan (at least it looks like it has some parts of Wing Chun in it). Try these links:

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=ugbVAB...eature=related

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=c4tAam...eature=related

Don't know, why they call it koppo. Koppo-jutsu is well known in several japanese systems as the art of bone-breaking ...


Armin.

[Matrix]

Don't know, why they call it koppo. Koppo-jutsu is well known in several japanese systems as the art of bone-breaking ...

Hi Armin,
Thanks for the links to videos.
Things were not too bad, until I saw this one.

Bill

[Mr Punch]

I've never come across a 'Japanesified' wing chun in the eight years I've been training over here.

Haven't checked those youtube vids yet - I'm at work - so I can't comment. I'll check them out when I get home. There are lots of elements of JMA, esp old school 'koryu' that look 'Chinesey' (and that's where some of them are from of course, so it's not so surprising), and koppo is usually an element of these older schools, so it may not be related to chun, but like I say, I can't comment till I've seen them or someone's described them.

[Armin]

Hi Bill,

Hi Armin,
Thanks for the links to videos.
Things were not too bad, until I saw this one.

Bill

Looks like two beginners in WT playing the 'pak sao/punch-game'

Somehow, some videos remind me of the good old WWF-times ...


Armin.

[Mr Punch]

It's a kind of magic!

Finally saw it... er, thanks, I guess.

That was really funny... they call it koppo because the takedowns and locks were from koppo. The slaps are obviously taken from chun... but no-one can say that this is a Japanesified chun in the same way as I-Ken or Taikiken are Japanese versions of Chinese arts: there's nothing systematic - it's just one quack supplementing his koppo with slaps, sticking and centreline principles (which, although I don't claim to know anything about koppo, since some of it's similar in some ways to aikijutsu, probably already has a strong centre principle) and calling it traditional.

What's really shocking is this! Like WWE but without the athleticism!

It's obviously the same organisation... I'd like to meet this Horibe geezer, just for a wheeze.

[KPM]

I've never come across a 'Japanesified' wing chun in the eight years I've been training over here.

Thanks for the feedback! I was hoping you would chime in. I haven't watched those video clips yet either. I have the same problem at work.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . .
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_Fb0Z4X_8Uk . .

Good form TJ

[Matrix]

The slaps are obviously taken from chun... .

I guess it wasn't that obvious to me.
I doesn't look like anything I'm familiar with.

What's really shocking is this! Like WWE but without the athleticism!

Yeah, I saw that one too. I think your comment sums it up quite nicely. BTW, what's with the drums?

Bill