What is Man Sau

[Sihing73]

Hello,

Since there is another thread seemingly being hijacked by the discussion on Man Sau I figured it would not hurt to start a new thread specifically addressing Man Sau.

So what is Man Sau? Can it be used to strike or is it simply a means of bridging?

FWIW I view Man Sau as an insects antenna or a blind mans cane. It goes forth to encounter and identify the opponents intent and energy. Man Sau asks the opponents intent and reacts accordingly.

Man Sau, IMHO, can certainly become a strike if there is nothing to prevent it from doing so. It can become a Fak Sau or a Yin Palm strike quite easily and without changing structure or energy all that much.

Anyhow, what are your thoughts? What is Man Sau?

[Ali. R]

Hello,

Since there is another thread seemingly being hijacked by the discussion on Man Sau I figured it would not hurt to start a new thread specifically addressing Man Sau.

I really enjoyed your participation on that thread also dealing with the “Mon Sao”; I’ll just sit back and wait on this one…


Take care,


Ali Rahim.

[Graychuan]

I really enjoyed your participation on that thread also dealing with the “Mon Sao”; I’ll just sit back and wait on this one…


Take care,


Ali Rahim.

I'm in agreement here about waiting. With all due respect I think the other thread about 'attacking' is much better. I think we all basicaly know what a Mon-Sao is.

[Sihing73]

I'm in agreement here about waiting. With all due respect I think the other thread about 'attacking' is much better. I think we all basicaly know what a Mon-Sao is.

Hello,

Perhaps so, then answering the question should be quite easy

My reason for posting this thread was to avoid hijacking the other thread. Also, I noticed that there was some difference of opinion as to whaether a Man Sau could or could not be used for attack.

Since this is such an easy thing I again ask to simply answer the question; what is Man Sau and can it be used for attack. If so how if not why not?

Looking forward to the responses. if there are any

[AndrewS]

Man sao asks a question.

It's an action not a shape.

Wu sao protects.

See above.

Hit 'em and keep your rear hand up and live.

Andrew

[monji112000]

Man sao asks a question.

It's an action not a shape.

Wu sao protects.

See above.

Hit 'em and keep your rear hand up and live.

Andrew

what if they hit low? Do you move your guarding hand or keep it stationary.

[Sihing73]

Hello AndrewS,

So how does Man Sau ask the question? What is the concept and if it has no shape then how is it formed? What is the "action" it is used for obstruction or for bridging and how and why does it change and to what does it change, if it does? Is Man Sau simply sticking the arm in the path and making the opponent go around or through?

monji112000,

IMHO the Man Sau is used for the upper gates and is an asking hand\obstruction. IMO a Man Sau is not used specifically to answer an attack, although the intial obstruction could identify the attack, but an answer to an attack would be more akin to Pak, Taun, Bong or in the case of a low lever punch perhaps Gaun Sau. The shape of Man can change as the energy is met. However, I feel that as you drop the arm it will already be changing into something else and no longer be a Man Sau, if that is what it started out as.

Again, just my opinion but a Man Sau is used to obstruct and take up space. It is used to probe and identify the opponents intent, not as a strike per se. Although, a Man Sau can become an attack if it meets an obstacle and determines there is an opening for an attack, thus transitioning to something else.

FWIW I may be completely off base on this

[AndrewS]

what if they hit low? Do you move your guarding hand or keep it stationary.

Well, if the attack (man) doesn't stop the low hit (attack is defense), then the guarding hand better guard, no?

What do we focus on in the arm in WC?

The elbow- that should probably be doing some guarding, eh, otherwise it wouldn't be a guarding hand.

Less obliquely- wu sao guards, if it doesn't guard, it isn't wu sao.

So how does Man Sau ask the question? What is the concept and if it has no shape then how is it formed? What is the "action" it is used for obstruction or for bridging and how and why does it change and to what does it change, if it does? Is Man Sau simply sticking the arm in the path and making the opponent go around or through?

How does it ask the question- just like Rene mentioned elsewhere- the question is what to do with my nice stiff jab in your face (see Dempsey, Jack), if you have no answer, the rear hand comes, rinse and repeat (hence, chain punches). As most people do something when you try to hit them, and you don't always ko on the first shot, usually this starts a conversation (and hence chain punches turn into chained motion, linking covered attacks and aggressive defenses that improve position).

You can just leave a man out there hanging, yeah, but I think that's a pretty easy question to answer, and if the way is free and the range is right, it's just wrong for you to leave that thing hanging when it should be hitting.

Andrew

[Sihing73]

Hello Andrew,

So is the Man really just a strike that asks and is answered?

[Liddel]

I think we all basicaly know what a Mon-Sao is.

Well there is an obvious difference in opinoin.

Ali mentioned if you make Mun stiff in terms of using it as an attack it cannot redirect etc....

There are several books out there that show GM Ip using Mun Sao on the Jong as an attack. (as stated in the text within the book)

Im not passing judgement on anyones 'view' of Mun Sao, just pointing out that yes there are different ideas about what it is and what its used for......

DREW

[AndrewS]

Dave,

to me, man is a question. It can be a lead hand out in front probing; it can be (essentially) a stiff jab. Either way, it seeks an answer. It's an action, not a thing.

Andrew

[monji112000]

Dave,

to me, man is a question. It can be a lead hand out in front probing; it can be (essentially) a stiff jab. Either way, it seeks an answer. It's an action, not a thing.

Andrew

This is the method I have used the man sao in sparring. honesty the way it was explained to me is its a "idea". If you have a free space, and you want to "check" or prob, you can use a "opening" hand movement. Maybe you would like his hands to go up or something else.. I have always thought about how boxers use a jab to check, setup ect.. My teacher was very adamant that its an idea, a strategy, that could be applied to many movements.

[Liddel]

to me, man is a question. It can be a lead hand out in front probing; it can be (essentially) a stiff jab. Either way, it seeks an answer. It's an action, not a thing.
Andrew

My teacher was very adamant that its a idea, a strategy, that could be applied to many movements

Thats you guys using the Kung Fu, not the Kung Fu using you.

Nice

[Ali. R]

WTF,

“Mon Sao” is a form of “leaking attack” WHICH ARE TONS OF THEM (attacking bad structure), which attacks the bad structure of your opponent on entry, from the point of the defensive triangle (small triangle) or offensive (large triangle)to the mother-line of your opponent’s centre of gravity…

The main function of the “Mon Sao” is to destroy structure and make a self-passageway on entry; trapping, pinning and to manipulate your opponent’s fighting lines… the “Mon Sao” only uses defensives hand structure when in use, and it wares many hats when attacking…

It will be hard for the “Mon Sao” to be called a punch/strike because it has to complete many function when, and if it’s used correctly on entry… There are many names for many things, but let’s face it gentlemen when the hands changes so does the weapon… The “Mon Sao is way to busy doing the things it be should doing before striking…

Therefore taking over the fighting lines with the “Mon Sao” and not to just line it up to someone (asking hand) LOL, and when no one answers attack with a punch LOL… When you do that (punch) it becomes just that, a punch… NOT a “Mon Sao”… And if one makes connection to your opponent’s bridge with that strike, then it’s something else once again…

And that’s just the attacking aspect, in other words only half of the equation...

I think I’ll stop here for a while, I’m talking to much…



Ali Rahim.

[Ali. R]

“Mon Sao” is not just holding your arm up and posing, when one has problems understanding it or using it, their wing chun attacks will be less then resolve…

This is the very basic way on how to use the “Mon Sao”, most didn’t like it here in the U.S. but this article is doing well in many different Countries in Europe, it’s actually hosted in many different website there…

http://detroitwingchun.com/steinerdigrams.htm

Take care,


Ali Rahim.