Wing chun sparring clip

[bennyvt]

hey im glad i got to see it. I thought that as it was a spar with no power used it looked like both were playing.
To expect to play with a good grappler when your only learning is good for your progress but to look at as a bjj Vs VT is not fair.
As far as the run in and jam him senario, that is what they want, I have a friend that does submission wrestling and when I learn we start on the ground but if its standing he waits for me to commit and so do I. Which means we stand there until someone gets bored and launches.
But I was wondering, I have been told several ways of defending a shoot (obviously when ready and not in bad position) and I was wondering which ones you prefer: (these have come from several sources not just my lineage)
1 Pivot and jum sao ( Jum can be substitued for any strike) to the neck
2 Go into a long stance like the pole for support and jum sao
3 adding the sprawl
4 Using footwork to step back and keep the distance with the hands, then attacking when shoot has been stopped.
5 The old hit him and knock him out.

I personally use 4 when I practice with grapplers as my sprawl is not great but that may be practice. I have tryed 1 and although I knocked him out with the jum sao he was really big and fell on me with me ending up on the ground with him on top of me, so if i hadn't knocked him he would have got it. I don't like the pole thing as it means that your front leg is further in front meaning you can tuse the footwork you have if he gets the front leg. I don't mind the sprawl but it means you also end up on the ground especially if its a fake. Number 5, Im five foot and we learn that only idiots think they can knock everyone out with a punch it may work some times but to rely on it is crazy.
If there are other ways please inform me but I thought this was better then the BJJ Vs ving tsun thead

[Nick Forrer]

Response to Benny

Being able to defend against grappling/being taken down is a matter not really of a particular technique or defence but rather training against decent grapplers...the better grapplers you train with the better your defence will be.

Bjjers typically dont have great takedowns - and the ones that do generally cross train in wrestling...so the best people to train with are freestyle wrestlers. If the country you live in doesnt have a good wrestling pedigree (i.e. doesnt medal in the olympics) then look for some emigres. In the UK this means Iranians and Eastern Europeans.

WRT to mma there is a way/are ways to set up a shot which involves striking high first and then level changing and shotting as the guy raises his hands to cover. This is just an example of the principle of distraction. Just getting a guy to shoot on you isnt necessarily realistic - he has to be able to punch too. That way way you are juggling two balls and not just one. Although of course you may start with one.

WRT to counters, control of distance, angulation and timing will help - what a grappler wants is to get control of you hips...so you have to be able to keep them away from him (a straight up vertical wing chun stance is therefore not ideal to do this)

Once he shoots Manipulating the head can help as well as pummeling for underhooks or ****zering the arm down if his head is inside

Sprawls are not all of a piece...an angulated 'hip cut' sprawl is generally more effective then a square sprawl. Kicking the leg out and peeling grips will also help

The angle step and gum/jum sau defences which are the staple of 'anti grappling' rarely work in practice against soemone decent.

Of course if you get taken down having a good guard with a focus on pushing him away and getting back to yor feet helps

[t_niehoff]

Being able to defend against grappling/being taken down is a matter not really of a particular technique or defence but rather training against decent grapplers...the better grapplers you train with the better your defence will be.

Great comment.

That is IT in a nutshell -- and is also true for stand up and clinch.

WRT to mma there is a way/are ways to set up a shot which involves striking high first and then level changing and shotting as the guy raises his hands to cover. This is just an example of the principle of distraction. Just getting a guy to shoot on you isnt necessarily realistic - he has to be able to punch too. That way way you are juggling two balls and not just one. Although of course you may start with one.

WRT to counters, control of distance, angulation and timing will help - what a grappler wants is to get control of you hips...so you have to be able to keep them away from him (a straight up vertical wing chun stance is therefore not ideal to do this)

What you realize after spending a lot of quality time with some VERY GOOD people is that, yes, they have great mechanics, great technique, but there is so much more that they have that permits them to essentially take you down at will -- they recognize "mistakes" that give them the takedown (like weighitng on your heels, 'erect' posture), know how to move to set you up, they can immediately change on your counter, etc. Not to mention the timing.

The only way to be able to learn to deal with all of that, is to get to know it, to know what the mistakes are (so that you don't make them), how he can move to set you up (so you know what he is doing), etc. He's got a whole game to take you down, and if you want to stop him, you've got to learn to play that game.

[Mike Sheng]

You really have to have a good sense of humor to watch this.LOL

[kung fu fighter]

Hey guys!

Check out this clip of a shoot defense from WSL linage sifu!
http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/...ide-Stance.wmv

Navin

[guy b.]

Agree with Nick Forrer. Judo can be good also if you have no wrestling nearby. It has more focus on clinch takedowns though.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey guys!

Check out this clip of a shoot defense from WSL linage sifu!
http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/...ide-Stance.wmv

Navin

Interesting, very nice, thanks.

[t_niehoff]

Hey guys!

Check out this clip of a shoot defense from WSL linage sifu!
http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/...ide-Stance.wmv

Navin

Yeah, a square stance is a good defensive position against an outside (noncontact) shoot -- and you can use it to effectively stall, e.g., Rashum v. Knifefighter video -- but the problem is you can't stay in a square stance in a fight: to attack your opponent you will need to step forward with a leg. That is what someone looking to shoot will be waiting for or trying to set up. And there are ways to penetrate even a square stance (if you simply watch MMA fights you'll see them).

Another aspect is that someone trying to take you down will recognize the advantages and disadvantages of the square stance and may not shoot into a square stance but engage first (make contact) then go for your leg.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, a square stance is a good defensive position against an outside (noncontact) shoot -- and you can use it to effectively stall, e.g., Rashum v. Knifefighter video -- but the problem is you can't stay in a square stance in a fight: to attack your opponent you will need to step forward with a leg. That is what someone looking to shoot will be waiting for or trying to set up. And there are ways to penetrate even a square stance (if you simply watch MMA fights you'll see them).

Another aspect is that someone trying to take you down will recognize the advantages and disadvantages of the square stance and may not shoot into a square stance but engage first (make contact) then go for your leg.

While I agree with this, I just wanted to state that I think this video is step in the right direction of learning how to use WC VS the attempted Take Down.

[t_niehoff]

While I agree with this, I just wanted to state that I think this video is step in the right direction of learning how to use WC VS the attempted Take Down.

And I agree with you -- listening to good fighters who *know* what they are talking about (the MMA fighter/grappler in the video) is a step in the right direction.

[sihing]

Hey guys!

Check out this clip of a shoot defense from WSL linage sifu!
http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/...ide-Stance.wmv

Navin

We used this stance steady in the TWC I trained in and taught at the school in Calgary. We regualarly trained shoot defences, as well as everything else. We found the same reasons why it is good, but as well limited too. With the lead leg out there, if gives the guy a target and is easier to grab, keep it back and that target is gone, plus the side stance allows better sideways movement, rather than back and forth straightline stuff.

That vid has been out there awhile now.

James

[t_niehoff]

We used this stance steady in the TWC I trained in and taught at the school in Calgary. We regualarly trained shoot defences, as well as everything else. We found the same reasons why it is good, but as well limited too. With the lead leg out there, if gives the guy a target and is easier to grab, keep it back and that target is gone, plus the side stance allows better sideways movement, rather than back and forth straightline stuff.

That vid has been out there awhile now.

James

Yeah, and the downside to a square stance (on the outside) is that it is purely defensive, and the transition to offense is slower and more telegraphed than a staggered stance.

[Knifefighter]

Hey guys!

Check out this clip of a shoot defense from WSL linage sifu!
http://wingchunfightclub.org/joomla/...ide-Stance.wmv

Navin

Hmmmm.... same old arguments going on here, I see.

As far as that clip, if the guy on the clip was really a champion wrestler, he should know that you don't move forward into your opponent when he is in a square stance (maybe he just didn't want to give away real grappling principles to WC guys ). You either get him to step forward, get him to put his weight onto you, or you angle to the side until you can isolate one of his legs.

[sihing]

Yeah, and the downside to a square stance (on the outside) is that it is purely defensive, and the transition to offense is slower and more telegraphed than a staggered stance.

Correct, up to a point. It comes down to distance control, I believe, you have to learn to use each Bi Jong (sp?) in the proper distance. Outside range you need the ability to cut off the ring per say, inside you need offense and forward aggression (generalizing here), this is one way to use the square on. I think it is wise to learn and master both ways, square on and side on at a distance because both offer something of value (neither are the be all end all), and train it against those that can test you enough to be able to use it well.

James

[monji112000]

Hmmmm.... same old arguments going on here, I see.

As far as that clip, if the guy on the clip was really a champion wrestler, he should know that you don't move forward into your opponent when he is in a square stance (maybe he just didn't want to give away real grappling principles to WC guys ). You either get him to step forward, get him to put his weight onto you, or you angle to the side until you can isolate one of his legs.

so just standing square isn't going to magically stop a shoot?