Wing Chun & Ju Jitsu...Samuel Kwok & Carlson Gracie

[sanjuro_ronin]

Demos are demos, I don't put stock in them at all.
At times they seem totally unrealistic, heck I even saw demos of people counter the shoot with a flying knee or doing a jump spin hook kick in MMA !!
Imagine that !!

[YungChun]

IMO a demo used legitimately can be used to teach something that has actual merit.. Folks can start off slow and apply a move to a known attack, etc.. Then you up the ante, etc..

But when you need to hold out demos as the example of the fighting value of the system then you are all show and no go.. To show fighting value of a system or style or method you have to show actual fighting.. The actual fighting will not look anything like what we see there in most cases as 'demoed'.... Those who have been around the block can see right away what is reasonable and not just based on the timing and motion used...

[KPM]

Hicks law is in effect...

When you know what's coming you start your perfect counter at the same exact time as does the attacker--as does everyone who does these kinds of demo moves..

In reality the beginning of the counter happens substantially later than we see in these and other demos because there is a perception/cognitive delay.. This is why in real fighting you see folks taking the offensive and not waiting for attacks.. Sure counter attacking and intercepting works, but not like this..... How often do we see the moves shown as shown in any real fighting or sparring?

---Good points! That's why I would have rather seen the techniques show up in an "unscripted" fashion. But given good reaction and timing, there's really no reason why at least several of the techniques demo'd couldn't show up in such a fashion. Not every attack comes in at lightning speed. Just watch a few UFCs.

[LoneTiger108]

You know, Lone Tiger, I just read your post and I've no idea whether you thought it was a good thing in the end or not, or whether you were agreeing with me or not...!

I agree that it was a commerically driven event, and I'm a huge seminar fan to be honest so any exchange is a good thing if you ask me! Judgment on its effectiveness would have to be left to the participants though IMO and it would be good to see if they both get together again.

[YungChun]

But given good reaction and timing, there's really no reason why at least several of the techniques demo'd couldn't show up in such a fashion.

If by "show up" you mean look nothing like what was seen in the demo then I agree..

[couch]

IMO a demo used legitimately can be used to teach something that has actual merit.. Folks can start off slow and apply a move to a known attack, etc.. Then you up the ante, etc..

But when you need to hold out demos as the example of the fighting value of the system then you are all show and no go.. To show fighting value of a system or style or method you have to show actual fighting.. The actual fighting will not look anything like what we see there in most cases as 'demoed'.... Those who have been around the block can see right away what is reasonable and not just based on the timing and motion used...

I somehow don't think demo's are for the "seasoned" martial artist. They are for trade-shows and events...to grab inexperienced people with a little bit of trickery.

I remember rolling up in a Bak Mei school in Calgary to check it out. The Sifu had all the students stop class and they put on a whole demo for us! Full of breaking chopsticks on the neck and breaking rocks with one finger! The boys & girls had skill with their MA, but also had this other Chi-Building stuff. Heck...I'm an Acupuncturist and there's only so much I can take!!!

I'm picking up what you laying down, however. I do like the idea of, say, Tony Blauer, who never does another take on his vids. If he screws up, so what?!? He's human. Or, like the nonchalantness of Gary Lam's backyard Chi Sau. That's what makes a good demo to me...the seasoned (what?!?) MAist.

Best,
Kenton Sefcik

[Nick Forrer]

BTW, I wasn't putting Sam down (I'll leave that to Nick Forrer if he appears on this thread!). .

*puts hands in pockets and whistles as he walks past thread *

[anerlich]

The truth be known is, if the Gracie Camp wanted this to happen and contacted Hong Kong for a representative,

I don't think they'd bother, in the IMO unlikely event that Carlson was serious and not just being polite. IMO there is as good or better WC in other parts of the world as there is in HK, probably including Brazil.

Suffice to say very little came from this as regards MMA competition.

It's good to see two senior MA's cooperating, but having been to at least five BJJ seminars given by name Brazilians with my WC instructor over the last few years, training weekly in BJJ and MMA with a senior guy from another WC lineage at a BJJ/MMA school, and hosting seminars at our kwoon by the head of Aussie Machado BJJ several times a year, it's hard for me to regard this as revolutionary or groundbreaking. "About friggin' time" is my immediate response.

If there's a DVD for sale, and its another 60 minutes of this, IMO your money is better spent, unless it has posterity value for you as a Kwok or Carlson student.

[Tom Kagan]

Carlson's WC "experiment" (which was more of a JKD "straight blast" intepretation of WC) came in with a bang with Vitor Belfort's flash KO of Vanderlei Silva and went out with a whimper because of Vitor's inability to use it after his initial success, as well as his other fighters not thinking much of it and having more success combining Muay Thai and boxing with their BJJ.

Uh ... huh?

I feel a need to point out Vitor's vanquishing of a young Wandy is from 1998, whereas this seminar was in 2004.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"I feel a need to point out Vitor's vanquishing of young Wandy is from 1998, whereas this seminar was in 2004." (Tom Kagan)


***Go figure...huh?

[Knifefighter]

Uh ... huh?

I feel a need to point out Vitor's vanquishing of a young Wandy is from 1998, whereas this seminar was in 2004.

Carlson had done some stuff with WC/JKD guys pre Silva/Belfort, which piqued his interest... hence the incorporation of the straight blast into Vitor's game. I think by the time of the seminar, he didn't really have much interest in it anymore.

[Tom Kagan]

Carlson had done some stuff with WC/JKD guys pre Silva/Belfort, which piqued his interest... hence the incorporation of the straight blast into Vitor's game. I think by the time of the seminar, he didn't really have much interest in it anymore.

This is the first time I've heard of this. I don't suppose you have more information regarding the specifics of who he was working with and how it came into being?

[stricker]

I've seen the dvd of the seminar, and i thought it was a bit was a bit ****.

[Liddel]

Carlson had done some stuff with WC/JKD guys pre Silva/Belfort, which piqued his interest... hence the incorporation of the straight blast into Vitor's game. I think by the time of the seminar, he didn't really have much interest in it anymore.

Can one really offer insight into why or why not he didnt continue to show a Blast of punches like that.....

like it had nothing to do with Vitors sister getting kidnapped and him loosing the plot mentally with regard to fighting.

I dont think one can speculate either way......

DREW

[Liddel]

--....edit..... I would have rather seen the techniques show up in an "unscripted" fashion. But given good reaction and timing, there's really no reason why at least several of the techniques demo'd couldn't show up in such a fashion.

The thing that gets me about Demos or even stuff you get in books... is NONE of it is spontaneous yet we see flaws in the basics.... WTF?

Given actions are known prior to things kickin off, wouldnt one expect the technique to look more 'perfect' than most demos do.....

In the Kwok Demo we see Sam use a Tan against a round punch but he uses all his arm (very little body turning into the punch) which means his Tan arm has a little flying elbow...its plain to see..... and this is a dam demo ????

The same goes for still pics ive seen in books.

DREW