"Fantasy-base" martial arts

[Nick Forrer]

Wing Chun provides all the knowledge and skill you will ever need to defend yourself in a real life fight.

Incorrect

Put wing chun in a sports enviroment and we lose hands down.

Incorrect - my school has a number of wins in MMA, Boxing and kickboxing

We rely on sensitivity something Gloves, any Gloves get in the way.

Incorrect

Besides I like to win fights fast and efficiently why would I want to play games
were the rules don't favor true self-defense.

Who plays games? Knocking someone out, breaking their arm, slamming them to the ground or choking them unconcious isnt a valid way to defend youself? ANd yet these are all valid ways to end an MMA fight. Just think a little more about what you are saying before you type.

All the ufc and programs like that have done is confuse people more.

The only confusion arises from peoples traditional presumptions and beliefs about real fighting being called into question

Ya I heard that 90percent of fights end up on the ground. I bet
you a good portion of that 10percent are wing chun fighters.

Incorrect

[Nick Forrer]

I started this thread in order to suggest the BJJ may not be the paragon of "functional" or "reality" martial arts that Terrence and Dale would have us believe.

Yesterday I was reading the latest issue of "Martial Arts Masters Magazine" and came across an interesting interview. It was entitled "An Inconvenient Truth." That article contained the following quote:

"Today, nearly 95% of all BJJ practitioners are being taught and focusing their efforts on preparing for competitions, including the Mundial. The problem is that 95% of what is being used in competition does not apply, and will not work in a real fight."

That is a comment from Ryron Gracie, son of Rorion, grandson of Helio. and the /primary instructor at the Gracie Academy. It suggests the strong possibility that Ryron would agree that there is an element of "fantasy fu" in BJJ, just as in other martial arts. Granted...its a matter of degree. But again, perhaps BJJ isn't the paragon of "reality" fighting that Terrence and Dale would like us to believe. Just thought I would close out my involvement on this thread with words from someone who should have good insight into BJJ itself.

Keith...you should actually train in some BJJ before commenting on it. There are four expressions of BJJ - Gi, No GI, MMA and street. Helio and sons dont like Gi and No Gi because of
a) the points system and time limits (meaning you can stall to a win )
b) the neglecting of the traditional self defense curriculum (a specific set if techniques)
c) The positions that would leave you vulnerable to striking on the street (e.g. half guard)

And they dont like MMA because to be good in it now you have to be good at wrestling and striking too....which the Gracies traditionally lack

But what makes BJJ so effective and what remains constant no matter what the expression (sport or non sport) are

a) the training methods (sparring against skilled resisting opponents) ,
b) the fundamentals i.e. concepts (leverage, base, position etc.) principles (posture, action/ reaction, weight distribution etc.) and ways of moving (e.g. bridging, shrimping, sprawling, hip heisting etc.)
and
c)the strategy (progressing up the positional hierachy - so you always have a specific goal/reference point in a fight).

[LoneTiger108]

Please post a link to a WC person fighting with the "Double Clubs"... anything like this will do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6EZE_rmsQs

Great clip of the Dog Brothers tourney! I was laughing slightly when the sticks when out the window for an all out bash-fest NHB style. But hey! That's what happens when you drop your weapon, isn't it?

Decent work by most there, and I've always respected the competitors of this sort of match, but still hard to find Wing Chun people actually 'using' Wing Chun Double Clubs to be honest Knifefighter!

Most inherit or mix their methods with Escrima/Kali/Pares concepts at best, so the chances of me finding anyone from my background actually competing is hard. But I will try. Lee Shing Family is so small, it may take more time for us all to see actual practitioners that can compete (safetly!)

Most of what I see in the clip is simply Wing Chun, but I would say that eh!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Keith...you should actually train in some BJJ before commenting on it. There are four expressions of BJJ - Gi, No GI, MMA and street. Helio and sons dont like Gi and No Gi because of
a) the points system and time limits (meaning you can stall to a win )
b) the neglecting of the traditional self defense curriculum (a specific set if techniques)
c) The positions that would leave you vulnerable to striking on the street (e.g. half guard)

And they dont like MMA because to be good in it now you have to be good at wrestling and striking too....which the Gracies traditionally lack

But what makes BJJ so effective and what remains constant no matter what the expression (sport or non sport) are

a) the training methods (sparring against skilled resisting opponents) ,
b) the fundamentals i.e. concepts (leverage, base, position etc.) principles (posture, action/ reaction, weight distribution etc.) and ways of moving (e.g. bridging, shrimping, sprawling, hip heisting etc.)
and
c)the strategy (progressing up the positional hierachy - so you always have a specific goal/reference point in a fight).

Nick has heel hooked the correct and GnP'd it just to make sure.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Phil

CLF is one of the styles Triads practice for those who don't know. Alll fights don't use guns. Sometimes you have to get up close and personal
In NYC most people know about razor blades in the mouth. Guys will fight you and call out numbers letting you know in advance how many stitches you're going to get.
Here is a clip of a guy demonstrating razor fighting. Notice that he has another blade in his mouth with his talking and demonstration with the other blade. Anyone not aware of this should be if you're ever in NYC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwQJRqlgq1I

Man the stuff they were doing in that vid was crazy. It reminds of Thug Workout I think I've posted it before

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b641j...eature=related


That was some impressive strength.
Oh ya, BTW, I'm stealing that vid and posting it on my facebook

J

[t_niehoff]

What is interesting, in lots of the video that I have seen of Dale, he has a smile on his face most of the time, like he is happy. Why can't he be like that here, lol.

He's smiling on that clip, I wager, because like most fighters, he's doing what he likes to do: fighting. Which is why he practices MAs in the first place: to get better doing the activity he enjoys.

Why can't he "be like that here"? I wager because he's not dealing with other fighters for the most part.

I'm sure in a face to face situation he would be cool to hang with, as he is intense about his Martial Art and trains hard obviously, so he has my respect for that. I just don't like the blanket statements about WC training and it's practitioners

James

My experience is that genuine fighters are cool people to hang with -- if you don't try to sell them on BS. You may not like "blanket statements about WC training and its practitioners" but unfortunately they are valid.

[sihing]

...You may not like "blanket statements about WC training and its practitioners" but unfortunately they are valid.

Your incorrect. IMO when someone makes a blanket statment, they mean everyone, and that is not true nor is there anyway to prove it. If he says, "Generally, or from what I have seen or have investigated, bla bla bla..", then that would not be taken as everyone, which would be a more accurate portrayal of what the reality is, same with you T, since you have not met everyone personally on this board, nor do you know exactly what every WC practitioners capabilities or training habits is. You think you can tell from what people write here, but you the fact is you can't

One thing, this is a WING CHUN forum, where we discuss WING CHUN. That might mean we are not discussing the strict fighting effectiveness of the art, but rather the concept behind what we are doing, the technique behind what we are doing, the theory behind what we are doing, the differences between us and what we are doing. Everytime that happens, either you or Dale pipe up and ask for video, asking for proof that it works. Sometimes that is not the ultimate point. This is a DISCUSSION board, where we talk, debate, argue, agree, wonder, about things Wing Chun related. Sometimes we get sick of it and get lost for awhile only to come back with the same old thoughts or something new on our minds, that we would like to share with like minded people.



James

[sanjuro_ronin]

My experience is that genuine fighters are cool people to hang with -- if you don't try to sell them on BS.

I know quite a few that are rotten *******s, but in general you are correct.

[t_niehoff]

Your incorrect. IMO when someone makes a blanket statment, they mean everyone, and that is not true nor is there anyway to prove it. If he says, "Generally, or from what I have seen or have investigated, bla bla bla..", then that would not be taken as everyone, which would be a more accurate portrayal of what the reality is, same with you T, since you have not met everyone personally on this board, nor do you know exactly what every WC practitioners capabilities or training habits is. You think you can tell from what people write here, but you the fact is you can't

Blanket statements are indeed generalities, and of course, there can always be exceptions. Smoking is bad for everyone's health. There is a blanket statement. It is true. Your fighting skill comes from fighting, and your skill level, and corresponding understanding of WCK, will dependon the amount of quality sparring you've done (using your wCK tools). Another blanket statment. Also true.

One thing, this is a WING CHUN forum, where we discuss WING CHUN. That might mean we are not discussing the strict fighting effectiveness of the art, but rather the concept behind what we are doing, the technique behind what we are doing, the theory behind what we are doing, the differences between us and what we are doing. Everytime that happens, either you or Dale pipe up and ask for video, asking for proof that it works. Sometimes that is not the ultimate point. This is a DISCUSSION board, where we talk, debate, argue, agree, wonder, about things Wing Chun related. Sometimes we get sick of it and get lost for awhile only to come back with the same old thoughts or something new on our minds, that we would like to share with like minded people.

James

I understand your frustration. You and others want to be able to discuss WCK theories, concepts, techniques, differences, etc. My POV is that most of that, however, is fantasy and not based on anything approaching reality -- so what you are saying, from my perspective, is that this forum is essentailly a Dungeons & Dragons discussion board. When you discuss WCK theories or techniques it is the same as discussing which magic ring to use to get past the ogre! To have any validity, our discussions need to be grounded in reality. To be reality-based, not fantasy-based. But to be reality-based requires that you are practicing in a reality-based way.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Blanket statements are indeed generalities, and of course, there can always be exceptions. Smoking is bad for everyone's health. There is a blanket statement. It is true. Your fighting skill comes from fighting, and your skill level, and corresponding understanding of WCK, will dependon the amount of quality sparring you've done (using your wCK tools). Another blanket statment. Also true.

Smoking is bad for everyone's health is a blanket statement and not a generalization since there is no exception.
Saying that WC practoners live in La-la land is a grossly inaccurate blanket statement of there are exceptions.
Saying the ALL the WC people you've met suck is a blanket statement and can even be an accurate one since you are not referring to all but to only the very limited ones you have met.
Saying that most WC people don't fight enough is a generalization and one that may will be very accurate.

Anyone that uses blanket statements is just stirring up drama.

[Graychuan]

Blanket statements are indeed generalities, and of course, there can always be exceptions. Smoking is bad for everyone's health. There is a blanket statement. It is true. Your fighting skill comes from fighting, and your skill level, and corresponding understanding of WCK, will dependon the amount of quality sparring you've done (using your wCK tools). Another blanket statment. Also true.



I understand your frustration. You and others want to be able to discuss WCK theories, concepts, techniques, differences, etc. My POV is that most of that, however, is fantasy and not based on anything approaching reality -- so what you are saying, from my perspective, is that this forum is essentailly a Dungeons & Dragons discussion board. When you discuss WCK theories or techniques it is the same as discussing which magic ring to use to get past the ogre! To have any validity, our discussions need to be grounded in reality. To be reality-based, not fantasy-based. But to be reality-based requires that you are practicing in a reality-based way.

Ive yet to see why MMA is considered 'reality' based. Especially since most things like eye gouges, groin strikes, small joint manipulation are all outlwed so that the cage fight satifies the spectators. All the stuff you could use in a real fight is outlawed in Cage, MMA or whatever. Besides, If Im wanting to end a fight quickly, im not going to the ground.

~Cg~

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ive yet to see why MMA is considered 'reality' based. Especially since most things like eye gouges, groin strikes, small joint manipulation are all outlwed so that the cage fight satifies the spectators. All the stuff you could use in a real fight is outlawed in Cage, MMA or whatever. Besides, If Im wanting to end a fight quickly, im not going to the ground.

Closest thing to reality outside reality, yes it is.
You do realize that "going to the ground" is NOT the prefered method of fighting in MMA and that it is only ONE 3rd of it ?

[sihing]

I understand your frustration. You and others want to be able to discuss WCK theories, concepts, techniques, differences, etc. My POV is that most of that, however, is fantasy and not based on anything approaching reality -- so what you are saying, from my perspective, is that this forum is essentailly a Dungeons & Dragons discussion board. When you discuss WCK theories or techniques it is the same as discussing which magic ring to use to get past the ogre! To have any validity, our discussions need to be grounded in reality. To be reality-based, not fantasy-based. But to be reality-based requires that you are practicing in a reality-based way.

The discussions are based on our experiences, knowledge, skills, and our ability to explain what that all means to others in the written form. Who's to say that my experience isn't real, or someones else's isn't real? You? I don't think so. What it all comes down to is credibility, do you trust the source of the information. If not, then take it for what it is, and disgard it. For example, when Dale talks about submission/BJJ fighting and techniques I listen, he has credibility with me in that regard. When it comes to TWC I listen to Phil, Victor, Andrew N, as they are my peers in that system and have credibility in that regard. Those people I listed don't have credibility with me in all areas, and that is true for everyone since no one has all the answers or skills in all areas of Martial Arts. We discuss, we theorize, we sometimes talk about where the left big toe should point (even though we shouldn't, lol), then we learn (whether or not the material learn is useful for us, is up to each individual to evaluate, and decide whether to absorb it or discard it, ala Bruce Tao of JKD).

James

[sihing]

...Anyone that uses blanket statements is just stirring up drama.

Or to promote an agenda, and see that it proliferates.

[t_niehoff]

Ive yet to see why MMA is considered 'reality' based. Especially since most things like eye gouges, groin strikes, small joint manipulation are all outlwed so that the cage fight satifies the spectators. All the stuff you could use in a real fight is outlawed in Cage, MMA or whatever. Besides, If Im wanting to end a fight quickly, im not going to the ground.

~Cg~

Because you don't understand what "reality-based" means. You are focusing on individual tools (the so-called "foul tactics"). Reality -based means that the skills you do have will work, function, operate, in a fighting environment (where you have a genuinely resisting opponent). Boxing will work in the ring, in the street, in a bar, etc. because the skills boxing develops are realistic skills. And it develops those skills by practicing them in a realistic environment (sparring). BJJ will work in a ring, cage, street, bar, etc. because the skills BJJ develops are realistic. And it develops those skills by practicing them in a realistic environment (sparring).

The thing about "foul tactics" is that, yes, they can be effective measures (although most don't have the stopping power many associate with them). BUT, our ability to actually use them will depend on having reality-based skills. IOWs, if you have a good, solid ground game you can add "foul tactics" to that game should you ever need to. Or, you can not use other aspects depending on the circumstances (not usegi chokes if the opponent is not wearing a collar). But without that game, without those realistic skills, you won't be able to use the "foul tactics."