Training with law enforcement officers

[Sal Canzonieri]

. . . is **** cool, you get great insights into things.

They have to be aware of all the different angles that the perp can still pull out a knife from or grab their gun, while taking the perp down onto the floor and THEN have to make sure that no matter what technique the class is doing, the move has to end so that the perp is face down and cuffable, and totally incapable of stopping the cuffing!

Much more interesting and very insightful. Angles in the techniques have to be perfect or the perp can counter and uprooting the perp is a must.

The police and FBI trainers in the classes are versed in mixed techniques that they got from southern monkey, tong bei sword, Sun style's TJQ, BG, and XY, Chin na, and Jujitsu/ Shuai Jiao.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Oh, and law enforcement is training AGAINST MMA now, so I am learning new ways of dealing with things through their questioning of applications.

[David Jamieson]

Most LEO training is external to the academy. the basic stuff they receive regarding restrain and contain deals with talk down and cuffing etc etc.

as for dealing with martial artists? no. They don't offer training that is the same as what a person who is into competitive fighting would get.

truth is, a lot of cops are all over the board with their self defense training and truthfully a lot of cops don't train at all and for sure many who are over 50 yrs haven't trained in a while and many would likely fail the basic test for entrance.

plus, the pool is muddy now after 911 where we have a flood of LEO's now and a lot of them aren't quite qualified etc etc.

so what's my point?

My point is, there is no set way for LEO's to train. there aren't any standards placed on self defense and in reality it is a hodge podge of stuff they draw from. So, in short, if any of you can come up with a standardized training platform for LEOs at a federal compliance level, then you will have made yourself a career worth having.

It's a lot of work.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Very true, that's exactly what they say when people ask them why they are taking martial arts classes. I think people assume that there is official training.
I've had LEO come in to learn sword techniques so that they can apply them to their batons.

I think some people in LE know that they need something more serious and go out and look for it.

The one FBI trainer said that the classes they give are now looking at dealing with MMA, cause it keeps coming up that these big lugs try to use it on them.

[Shaolin Wookie]

. . . is **** cool, you get great insights into things.

They have to be aware of all the different angles that the perp can still pull out a knife from or grab their gun, while taking the perp down onto the floor and THEN have to make sure that no matter what technique the class is doing, the move has to end so that the perp is face down and cuffable, and totally incapable of stopping the cuffing!

Much more interesting and very insightful. Angles in the techniques have to be perfect or the perp can counter and uprooting the perp is a must.

The police and FBI trainers in the classes are versed in mixed techniques that they got from southern monkey, tong bei sword, Sun style's TJQ, BG, and XY, Chin na, and Jujitsu/ Shuai Jiao.

Yup. A knife training class here (I only got to view it, since I'm not an agent--just admin) brought up some sweet continuations of motions I'd seen at my CMA school. Primarily, methods of quick disarms. (I think the guy who was running it said he had Kali trianing...not sure).

[Tai-Lik]

i've been a Police Officer for 16 years. Every department has it's own emphasis in regards to self-defense. During the 90's our department started training every officer in BJJ. Many of our instructors were sent to the Gracie schools for certification. Although our training emphasizes handcuffing, restraining, and weapon retention technniques, our training goes way beyond that. Using only necessary to subdue a criminal leaves Officers vulnerable to be taken to the ground when the criminal's active resistance esculates. This is why during our quarterly training we spend 8 hours a day rolling around on the mat repeating basic ground fighting techniques. Officers who work in certain specialties such myself do it on a weekly basis during working hours.

With the popularity of MMA, some agencies do openly take into consideration and train for arrestees who may have this experience. So in the last few years boxing, krav maga, kung fu, chin na, and shuai jiao have been introduced into our training. Our department has put together a standard self-defense curriculum which focuses on basic and instinctive techniques from these various arts. You may have already heard, but many agencies are interested in the self-defense training offered by the Hong Kong Police.

[xcakid]

My sifu is a cop by day. He says that Shuia Chiao and Chin Na techniques are pretty common use for him. Lots of knife defense. He says that learning to spar improves reaction time. Learning to apply Chin Na and Shuia Chiao techniques properly helps take down suspects or disarm them.

I have a friend that is an FBI agent, it seems that they are pretty basic when it comes to hand to hand, however he seems to be very well versed in shooting.

Me, I like taking the middle road. Have both the hand to hand and shooting skills. Being a civilian, I don't have to disarm the book the suspect. All I have to do is stop the threat. Living in Texas we have a ton of laws that backs self defense. With the enhancement of our Castle Doctorine, the law tilts more toward people defending themselves. Specially if the bad guy has a history.

[David Jamieson]

The modern way is to focus on those things that give you the upper hand. hence the practical shooting training and use of so-called non-lethal weapons will take presidence over any empty hand training.

restrain and contain is the only place where locks, seizing and holds etc would be of any use to a cop.

often this is easier to do with a perp that has been pepper sprayed and tazed.

not much work to cuff a blinded paralyzed dude.

[Tai-Lik]

law enforcement procedures often change with cases like Rodney King and others.
realistically, there will frequently be situations when officers have to deal with arrestees who are "passively resisting" in a "hands on" manner. the typical "non-lethal weapons" are probably not being used against a person who is passive. it's during the passive stage when things are most dangerous & can quickly change to the active resistance or aggression and now your in a fight. if the arrestee is initially in a active aggresive state, then your so called "no lethal weapons" asp batons, etc. can be deployed immediately.

of course we are trained to have the upperhand tactically, but officers on the streets know that there are many calls and situations that you can't predict or control and need to defend yourself "hands on" until you can get to your lethal or non-lethal weapon if necessary. obviously officers don't want to wrestle or fight with a criminal because weapons they carry on their person can be used against them, but the reality is that these situations happen unexpectedly everyday.

[Tai-Lik]

David Jamieson wrote:

hence the practical shooting training and use of so-called non-lethal weapons will take presidence over any empty hand training.

very interesting point, but realistically, officers find themselves in situations where there is no time for this opportunity even with all the tactical edge training we receive. if there is enough information prior to arriving at the scene then an officer can have be mentally prepared with some of these lethal or non-lethal weapons ready while using distance, cover, concealment, body positioning, etc. to his advantage, but the everday call isn't like that. most calls don't allow you to walk up with your OC spray, asp baton, or gun in hand. btw pepper spray doesn't work on everyone and i've seen guys rely too much on it and get beat down by criminals who are on drugs or who are apart of the small population of people who simply do not react to OC spray.

my point is that based on what we know today regarding the typical encounters officers face, training in empty hand self-defense is just as important as weapon training.

[Water Dragon]

I think a lot of people here are missing the forest for the trees. It doesn't matter if it's Shuai Chiao or Judo, Chin Na or Aikido. There's a set of skills that are useful to the Police. Police need to restrain people. They need a way to get them on the ground, and control them to get cuffs on. They need a way to make beligerant people comply in less extreme situations. There's a number of ways to get these skill sets. I don't think this is really that big of a focus for most cops anyway. They have mace, sticks, tasers, and handguns availible to them most always, and things lot shotguns and swat teams if things get really bad. Most cops just aren't gonna put themselves into a hand to hand situation unless they are forced to. Too much danger and legal liability there.

The other thing is that civilian needs just aren't the same as the police. First, you're simply not likely to get attacked. I always get a kick out of internet 'warrior' stories. I lived in one of the most violent ghettos in the country for about ten years, and have never seen the **** people here are claiming. I did get knifed once when I was 18. I got shot at 2 or 3 times, pulled a gun on someone once, and actually used martial arts one time. I choked out some drunk in a bar when I was about 28 and then just left before anyone knew what happened. I also got beat down by 3 dudes when I was 19. That one was kinda bad. I've seen a lot of ****, I ran a lot of times, and kep a good enough eye to leave quite a bit of situations.

As far as martial arts, I just don't find it beneficial to me to train something to prepare for some 'street situation. It's would be a waste of time to me. I get the physical fitness benefits, the social benefits, and since my kids do Judo too, we get family bonding time. Plus, I get to compete, which is something I enjoy. It's a lot of fun for me. This is where I find value in martial arts today. I'm also firmly of the belief that the only way to develop and KEEP skill is through constant competetive training of some sort. Of course there are other necesities, but this one has to be there. Don't do that, and youre **** probably wont work. At least not as good as it should. I do get that as well, but I rarely think about that aspect anymore.

That being said, that's just how I see it based on what is important to me. Other people are gonna have different motivations, which is great. As long as you're training is adding value to your life, you're doing good.

[Mas Judt]

Oh come on Larry, I've been to your neighborhood, it's like Palm Springs, only with industrial blight, uneducated psychotic f@ck ups, and more drugs and guns than any thousand people could use. A totally, safe, suburban environment. Sheesh.

[Water Dragon]

Ironically, that's the point I'm making. Even in that environment, life went on as it normally does everywhere for the most part. The people that get caught up are looking for it. Even there, you don't see the stuff that people here seem to be worrying about. And if you do, it's because you went looking for it.

[rogue]

The other thing is that civilian needs just aren't the same as the police. First, you're simply not likely to get attacked.

Very true, and if we see trouble we are not obligated to get involved. I have trained with LEO's and haven't found them to have much knowledge that is useful to me. I have learned a lot from deputy's who hear a lot of things in the courts and in the jails.

The people that get caught up are looking for it.

Almost a self fulfilling prophecy. Once upon a time I was worried but now I just enjoy the training.

[1bad65]

I train with a few too. One of them has actually fought MMA. It's different than training for self-defense or for the ring he says. Not to snipe, but he says he would never try and use pressure points in a fight or sd situation, but he uses them in his job for compliance. Kind of like a 'come along'.