Forms or Not Forms

[Sal Canzonieri]

I was just watching a video of a talk by Chen Xiao Wang, in it he said (losely translated that the frame (the form) is just to learn how to execute the movements correctly, after you are skillful with it, after your energy is correct, you must discard the frame, because if you do the exact postures of the frame in a self defense situation, you will get beaten down.

So, I think this is saying that the frame (a form) is a means to an end, it is a vehicle, a memory device, but without the fundamental body mechanics being correct, it is of no value. Once you are able to achieve a skill, like one permanently learns how to ride a bike (even if someone hasn't ridden in 10-20 years, he can still ride if given a bike), then you don't need the training wheels anymore, you "have it".

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms sever many purposes, fighting isn't one of them per say.
The are great to familiarize yourself with a system.
The are great as a benchmark for progression.
They allow for a class environment in the MA.
Many systems use them to introduce new technoques, etc, etc.

Are forms needs for fighting?
NO.
Can they even b e counter-productive to fighting?
YES.
Are forms useless?
NO.
Are forms needed?
Depends on what you use them for.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I see forms as a way to record the systems core techniques, and favorite combos. I also see them as tools for solo practice to help maintain conditioning, and to refine the body mechanics.

Based on that, Refining body mechanics infers you already have them, developed through drills.
When I say Maintain conditioning, that also means already developed through other means.

I think that learning two man drills, sparring with the techniques in the form, and then learning the sequence only after you are good at fighting with the techniques is how it should be done.

[lkfmdc]

The major problem with learning forms is that when you are learning a new one, if the power goes off, and your VHS machine doesn't work, how do you finsih the form?

I think the answer is obvious, have an identity for the rest of the forum and a special one just for this part

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I think the answer is obvious, have an identity for the rest of the forum and a special one just for this part

Reply]
What?

[lkfmdc]

oh relax, I haven't even finished my first cup of coffee yet... I was being funny, or trying

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I am relaxed...i really didn't understand what you meant?

[lkfmdc]

I am relaxed...i really didn't understand what you meant?

arent you just "royal dragon" on the other sub forums but you are RD's alias here?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

[Pigs in space}Oh!! I got it nnnnnow!! [/pigs in space]

Yes, I am both identities. This one is a secret one for trolling though. No one is supposed to know I am really Royal Dragon

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What I want to know, is why 6 months have gone by and I STILL cannot post on the main forum, with my main profile!!

[lkfmdc]

What I want to know, is why 6 months have gone by and I STILL cannot post on the main forum, with my main profile!!

it's a conspiracy....

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

I believe that. I hardly ever posted on the other forums prior to this...I think it's a conspiracy to force me to post on the other ones.

[bodhitree]

I believe that. I hardly ever posted on the other forums prior to this...I think it's a conspiracy to force me to post on the other ones.

yeah we want you to post on any forum

[lkfmdc]

I just spoke to Gene, and he says as long as your posts are strictly about Canadian bacon he can restore your account here.... but ONLY Canadian bacon, maybe French ham, but certainly not flap jacks

[SPJ]

you must discard the frame, because if you do the exact postures of the frame in a self defense situation, you will get beaten down.

this a debate 4ever.

1. if you practice a single move everyday such as half step Beng quan (xing Yi), you are a master of the move. you may defeat the opponent with the single move. all the other moves are set up for you to do your ultimate move be it left upper cut etc.

2. no, you may never defeat anyone with a single move. you need several moves in combo and variants of them. b/c if you fight as expected, you will be countered.
several moves/postures together or a set up combo is called Zhao.

yes you never defeat anyone with a single posture/shi in the forms. you need to vary orders and construe several postures together or Zhao.

which is a high level of integration or how to interchage among moves/shi.

you change according to the opponent's countermove.

in short, we defeat the opponent with a set up.

the other school is that.

you only have to do the single move fast enough, powerful enough, timely enough, you defeat the opponent with a single blow and end the fight,

so a set up of a few moves vs a decisive single blow,

this is a debate going on 4ever.