Sent you a PM
Sent you a PM
Yes, "Northwind" is my internet alias used for years that has lots to do with my main style, as well as other lil cool things - it just works. Wanna know my name? Ask me
http://www.pathsatlanta.org
Short and sweet - There is no such thing as "Authentic Shaolin"
I could take a very simple story and have it passed from person to person. By the end of the day that story will be different from the one told at the beginning of the day.
Yet, somehow forms passed down over 1,500 years are going to remain the same.....
no forms have been passed down over 1500 years. This is clear.
the earliest that "forms" or what could be regarded as forms is roughly 400 years or so, maybe a litle longer.
what we have now is remnants at best oft hose things with the greatest amounts of forms being created in only the last 150 years or so.
Kung Fu is good for you.
So what you're saying is there were no forms as we've come to know them before the 1600's? All of the monks just did drills?originally posted by David Jamieson
no forms have been passed down over 1500 years. This is clear.
the earliest that "forms" or what could be regarded as forms is roughly 400 years or so, maybe a litle longer.
what we have now is remnants at best oft hose things with the greatest amounts of forms being created in only the last 150 years or so.
Or is it that no forms from before the 1600's have survived at all?
The three components of combat are 1) Speed, 2) Guts and 3) Techniques. All three components must go hand in hand. One component cannot survive without the others." (WJM - June 14, 1974)
With what evidence exists, yes. There are now one or two books out that have done some real delving outside the realm of the oral tradition which in regards to kungfu has obviously become horribly corrupted in recent years, especially in the americas where it has spiraled into the inane in many cases.
For instance, it is known that the Shaolin practiced martial arts in the tang dynasty.
But what they practiced is not known and there is no record of pre-arranged choreographed long sets as we see them now.
Many of the groups that propagate long forms arose towards the end of the Qing dynasty, particularly during the 1700's and through with even more being added in the last 150 years or so.
But there is written materials that date into the 1500's actually in regards to shaolin staff according to Meir Shahars' recent study on the Shaolin. At that time, there were also a rise in the production of manuals for military martial training.
Much of what is present now isn't what was going on then although there is of course the natural direction of things that dictates that what is now was also then seeing as the fundamental understanding of close combat involves correct structure and power combined with technique to execute kicks, punchs, locks and throws.
It will be interesting as more doors are opened when keys are found and we can see what is dross and what is food.
for background on Dr.Shahar check out his cred here: http://www.tau.ac.il/~mshahar/
Last edited by David Jamieson; 01-29-2009 at 06:05 AM.
Kung Fu is good for you.
Not to mention that, if I recall correctly, what the Shaolin monks were know for was armed combat, namely the Staff.
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion, and the Chinese Martial Arts by Meir Shahar thread. If you haven't engaged this work yet, you really should not be discussing Shaolin history.
I just heard from Meir over Chinese New Year. He's about to take a sabbatical to Beijing.
Gene Ching
Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
Author of Shaolin Trips
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absolutely. I think that Meir Shahar has helped to confirm that which is correct in the oral traditions and has stemmed the growing tide of nonsense in the marketing and commercialization of various schools of martial arts.
academic studies are very important and rare when it comes to Shaolin. So books like Dr. Shahar's are invaluable to anyone seeking background knowledge about what it is they are doing or want to do.
With more academic, cold hard light of day studies, we will thankfully see the fall of the bullshit purveyors that for far too long have infected the ranks of martial practice.
It's the dawn of a golden age of martial arts once again with the advent of realistic practices in training, true academic studies of the origins and a combination of these things to move forward and correct the inadequacies in training and application taht have made martial arts into a twisted fantasy for a few decades.
let's all collectively take the martial arts back, define the reality and appreciate the mythos without actually accepting it as one for the other.
mythos should remain just that and application can be free from it.
[/rant]
Kung Fu is good for you.
David,
I agree whole heartedly.