The Only Truly Authentic Shaolin System

[BoulderDawg]

Short and sweet - There is no such thing as "Authentic Shaolin"

I could take a very simple story and have it passed from person to person. By the end of the day that story will be different from the one told at the beginning of the day.

Yet, somehow forms passed down over 1,500 years are going to remain the same.....

[Sal Canzonieri]

BSL is an amalgamated style, that is pretty modern compared to the Luohan and Hong gates as Shaolin.

Gan Feng Chi was not the DIRECT creator of the 10 sets, that is historically incorrect, he was a anti-Qing rebel and traveled all over the place as a consequence, he taught different people different things and learned different things from different places.

After 1732-35, many martial monks moved out of the temple area, Shadong Long Fist comes from the monks that moved out to that area, for one example.
So, THIS can be considered the "REAL" Shaolin.

People who knew the Luohan gate moved to Shanghai, THIS can be considered the "REAL" Shaolin.

Gan Feng Chi taught some people his long fist GATE that he learned at Shaolin to some people, he also practiced Plum Flower Long Fist, which was the style of the anti-Qing rebels at the time. Was his Plum Flower better than his Shaolin, since he used that instead at that time?

Then he went to Emei and studied 3 Emperor Pao Chui style, so when he taught 3 Emperor Pao Chui to some people, was this no good or better than his Shaolin?

LATER still, the actual full style that Gan Feng Chi created, not distantly contributed to as in BSL, was called Hua Quan, FLOWER style (not related to Hua Mountain Quan at all, same name), a soft and hard style that he was very famous for.
THAT's he "real" mature style, not only his Shaolin which is what he did as a youth, which was a root for his Wundang-Shaolin soft hard internal external Hua Quan.
THEN, he was executed for being a rebel.

So, where is Gan Feng Chi's "real" shaolin? very distant to BSL.

AND, guess what, before Gan's time at Shaolin, it has closed down a few times before that and all was lost again. During the Yuan dynasty Shaolin was shut down many hundreds of years before Gan was there, and all the martial art they did was gone, when people (Jue Yuan, Bai Yu Feng, Li Sou) tried to reopen the place to martial arts, they had to go to Luoyang a few miles away to re-learn Shaolin martial art, which they then redeveloped into a new system.
Was this the "REAL" Shoalin? It wasn't what Gan Feng Chi practiced hundreds of years later.

Was the "REAL" Shaolin the stuff that was done at Shaolin before it was closed down in the Yuan Dynasty? During the Tang dynasty they did Tong Bei and Pao Chui which they go from the military that trained them. Was this the "REAL" Shaolin?
During the Song dynasty, they created new set like Tai Tzu Chang Quan, Hong Quan, Tong Bi Quan, Rou Quan and so on. Was this the "REAL" Shaolin.

This system was taught since the Song Dynasty and spread throughout the countryside.

Once Shaolin died out a few more times later, and the "ORIGINAL" Shaolin material that the people did in the countryside only existed, was this the "REAL" Shaolin and not the stuff that was developed later after the Yuan Dynasty?

AND< after Shaolin was closed for its last time in 1920s, some monks left and got married and spread throughout China, they brought with them their sets and copies of the original manuals that documented Shaolin of their time and the ancient Song dynasty original sets. Isn't this the "REAL" Shaolin, if not, why not?
AND, some monks stayed in the area and still trained there at night, even though the place as burned out. And they taught their stuff to the people in the countryside. Was this the "REAL" Shaolin, if not, why not?

After 1981, the lineages that survived the 1920s burning were asked to reintroduce their AUTHENTIC and many generations practiced Shaolin sets back to Shaolin.

SO, today you have two completely different things at Shaolin, acrobatic super fast government workers posing as "monks" (who do modern Wushu theatrucs) and the OLD monks still alive and their students and grand students that practice the old Shaolin sets that have been preserved from their teachers and from their copies of the Shaolin martial art manuals that survived the burning of 1920s.
Isn't this stuff the "REAL" Shaolin?

Take you pick of which "REAL" Shaolin you want.

[gwa sow]

i always did like it when you posted something:

[doug maverick]

Anyone familiar with the recent history of Shaolin's revival would know that what they're doing isn't a completely authentic Shaolin system. Maybe it's turned into that because of all the propaganda but as a complete system it doesn't go back to the 1700's and earlier. To me it looks like they're doing "wushuized", Shaolin-like moves, with Chi-Gung, Chin Na, and San Shou. I know it probably won't happen but I think the PRC and The Shaolin Temple should acknowledge Bei Shaolin (Bak Siu Lum) as the original style for the temple in Honan, period.

heres my thinking on the subject. if there monks right, shaolin monks right right, and there practicing forms that are based on shaolin kung fu right right, at the shaolin temple. the doesn't that make it authentic shaolin.

[The Xia]

heres my thinking on the subject. if there monks right, shaolin monks right right, and there practicing forms that are based on shaolin kung fu right right, at the shaolin temple. the doesn't that make it authentic shaolin.

You haven't heard the low down on modern Shaolin monks?

[DPL]

Couldn't we say that Shaolin is like an ocean. Constantly flowing like the tide. Transforming and seperating from the source, then returning back later to the new source.

It's more like a schizophrenic elephant with anger management issues, constantly arguing with different parts of itself as to which part is the 'real, authentic' elephant. And also whether it should be called elephant, oliphant, or modern mammoth.

[Royal Dragon]

I'd go with "Modern mammouth" Because it's just cooler!!

if it is pretty widely known, what was taught/known in the shaolin in the past, then why dont the current temple just adopt/go back to whatever it was that was "known" in the past, so arguments like this wont happen? so the current temple teaching can be the *original* teaching
unless what is currently being taught is the original......

Reply]
Shaolin is currently teching the really old original systems. What do you think Louhan, Tai Tzu, Xiao and Da Hong Quan, Cannon Fist, Rou Quan and Tongbei are? All that stuff is pre Ming dynsaty, and some is even pre Sung dynasty. You just can't gte more authentic than that.

Also, I thought the 10 hand sets were taught at shaolin, just by a different name, Kanji Fist or some such thing.

[Shaolinlueb]

everything claims to have come from shaolin. truely authentic shaolin kung fu i think is lost. you can argue this all day. i think all we have are styles one time taught at the temple.

hung gar taught today is not the same ti was taught at the temple. it evolved.

we all have a basis in shaolin.

[mkriii]

There is an old motivating Chinese saying I love:

"The Great Times create the hero, but the Great Hero creates The Time"

Just some thoughts.

Sounds like a Zen riddle to me.

[David Jamieson]

I know this has been debated ad nauseum, but it still bothers me that what the majority of people are calling "Shaolin" these days is NOT the oldest, most complete, and authentic system that bears that name.

Gan Fengchi taught everyone the style he learned at Shaolin Temple in the early 1700's. It was the culmination of centuries of kung fu knowledge and it was truely the only style that could be called just "Shaolin" at the time. The PRC basically banned it (and all other martial arts) during the Cultural Revolution. This caused many sifu's, including Yim Shan Wu of my lineage, to leave the country and live in places like Hong Kong, Taiwan and elsewhere.

So what are the current monks doing

Anyone familiar with the recent history of Shaolin's revival would know that what they're doing isn't a completely authentic Shaolin system. Maybe it's turned into that because of all the propaganda but as a complete system it doesn't go back to the 1700's and earlier. To me it looks like they're doing "wushuized", Shaolin-like moves, with Chi-Gung, Chin Na, and San Shou. I know it probably won't happen but I think the PRC and The Shaolin Temple should acknowledge Bei Shaolin (Bak Siu Lum) as the original style for the temple in Honan, period.

Pretty elitist thinking don't you think?

You have to consider the diaspora of shaolin kungfu and the subsequent transformations and numerous iterations of same.

to say that one style from 300 years ago is the only true style does disservice to the spirit of shaolin kungfu. Not to mention, it immediately brands that 300 year old stuff as irrelevant because it is stagnant.

what gan Fengchi taught and what is now are two entirely different things. It cannot be any other way.

look around at your classmates. Do they perform and apply exactly the same as you? as each other? no. each is differnet and the ones who go forward will be ever changing the face of the style they learned as it passes again and again. the methods themselves may endure, but the expression has to change with every person who wears the style.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Pretty elitist thinking don't you think?

You have to consider the diaspora of shaolin kungfu and the subsequent transformations and numerous iterations of same.

to say that one style from 300 years ago is the only true style does disservice to the spirit of shaolin kungfu. Not to mention, it immediately brands that 300 year old stuff as irrelevant because it is stagnant.

what gan Fengchi taught and what is now are two entirely different things. It cannot be any other way.

look around at your classmates. Do they perform and apply exactly the same as you? as each other? no. each is differnet and the ones who go forward will be ever changing the face of the style they learned as it passes again and again. the methods themselves may endure, but the expression has to change with every person who wears the style.

Gan Feng Chi there is no real historical evidence that he taught people his Shaolin,
maybe he did to a few people, but he would be too young, the years don't match up to where he was at the time.

For a long time he was in Emei learning 3 Emperor Pao Chui,
and then he spent most of his adult life as a anti-Qing rebel, he spent time developing Hua Quan, and its 4 long set and few weapons sets.
THAT is what he is documented as teaching, it is not Shaolin.
He was executed by the Qing government once he was caught.

I had looked at the dates, it doesn't match up to the BSL story.
It was people from modern times that started claiming him.
They grabbed his name cause he was famous.
Same as using Chi Yuan as a founder, he is always used a founder by many other styles of long fist, only because he is the only long fist monks that they heard of.

The monks from Songshan Shoalin that left in the 1700s went to Shandong Shaolin temples, there is a researcher in China that has been verifying this.
And, what they taught people and all over Shantong province they do this Shaolin art, is called Hong Quan, and it is a part of the Shaolin Song Tai Tzu Hong Quan system, SO THERE IS YOUR PROOF that of what the Songshan Shaolin monks were learning and teaching when they left: Hong Quan which is Tai Tzu Quan.
There are verifiable lineages, with documentation, because these monks taught bodyguard companies and there are records of their employees and what they learned. And Wang Zi Ping, the famous long fist martial artist, also learned from these monks and their descendants in the Shandong area.

[r.(shaolin)]

The monks from Songshan Shoalin that left in the 1700s went to Shandong Shaolin temples, there is a researcher in China that has been verifying this.
And, what they taught people and all over Shantong province they do this Shaolin art, is called Hong Quan, and it is a part of the Shaolin Song Tai Tzu Hong Quan system, SO THERE IS YOUR PROOF that of what the Songshan Shaolin monks were learning and teaching when they left: Hong Quan which is Tai Tzu Quan.
There are verifiable lineages, with documentation, because these monks taught bodyguard companies and there are records of their employees and what they learned. And Wang Zi Ping, the famous long fist martial artist, also learned from these monks and their descendants in the Shandong area.

Although Shaolin monks may have contributed to the spread of Hong Quan in Shandong, the oral tradition I practice says that Hong Quan was not developed by Shaolin monks and that only two sets of Hong Quan were practiced (mostly Shaolin did not absorb entire systems). Further more these two sets were considered fundamentals and were used in tests of basic skill. The system(s) practiced in Shandong, Shaanxi and Gansu provinces is much more extensive and complete and in fact is widely practiced in all the northern provinces of China today, especially in Shaanxi, Shandong, Gansu, Ningxia, and Xinjiang. It first spread in the provinces of Henan, Sichuan and Gansu.

Pretty well every oral and recorded legend says that Zhao Kuangyin (960-976 ), the first Song Emperor (posthumous temple name -Taizu) created Hong Quan. Zhao came from a military family in Luoyang, (not far from Shaolin Si). Here is what was passed on concerning development of Hong Quan by Huang Baoshan 黄寶珊 to one of his students in 1993. Huang Baoshan was a very knowledgeable Hong Quan practitioner from the town of Tianshui, Gansu province. Huang and his older generations, believed that the major systematization of the style is most probably during the Qing Dynasty (1368-1911) in the provinces of Shandong and Shaanxi and was spread by teachers connected with the military.

Huang Baoshan - 黄寶珊 (1905-1998) trained with Sun Yanbiao 蓀彥彪 (1884-1981) a famous Hong Quan teacher in North west China. Sun Yanbiao also taught Wang Ziping (1881-1973) and Wang Bugao (1885-1960). Sun Yanbiao's teacher was General Shao Yinhuan 紹銀環(1862-1930). Huang Baoshan (黄寶珊) also studied with General Gao Zhankui 高占魁 who was a famous expert in Hong Quan, and one of the three important generals to spread Hong Quan in Shaanxi during this period. This is documented in the "Shaanxi martial arts records" and the "Sanyuan county annals" . As well according to the Gaoshan Shilu 高山史錄 "Records from Gaoshan," Gao Zhankui was a military instructor in Xian and responsible in winning a battle at Wucheng.

In 1920 Huang Baoshan also visited and studied briefly at Shaolin Si. This was during the time that Venerable Miao Xin (1876-1934) was there. According to him, before 1928, the monks of the Shaolin monastery used to practice Hongquan, but after the reconstruction following the movie "Shaolin Temple" in the 80s , the Hongquan forms the monk practice now, although have same name, are different. Hong Quan before 1900 was known in Shaolin within two sets, the Shaolin Xiao hongquan and Shaolin Da hongquan. In keeping with the oral tradition that has been passed on to my older generation, the two Shaolin Hong Quan forms where developed outside and were imported into Shaolin. In the original system of Hongquan, the movements are long, and are classified as long range boxing (Changquan ). According to Huang Baoshan, pre 1920 Hong Quan movements are long, clear-cut, elegant and clear in their steps and application. As with my Shaolin tradition, Huang Baoshan, also said that the "two roads Hong fist" (erluhongquan), at Shaolin were basic routines. Having seen what was practiced at Shaolin in 1920 Huang Baoshan said that what is being practiced as Hong Quan at the Shaolin temple today, the moves are cut and short, unlike the original Shaolin Hong Quan, which is fluid with long movements of the arms.
r.

[Royal Dragon]

R Shaolin,
Do you know the origin of this set? I know it's form Shandong, but who created it, and what style is it from?

I have allways been told it is from Zhao Kuang Yin, but reacently I have been hearing there is also a Long fist style created by Ming Tai Tzu as well, and I am wondering if this one might actuialy be from that.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Although Shaolin monks may have contributed to the spread of Hong Quan in Shandong, the oral tradition I practice says that Hong Quan was not developed by Shaolin monks and that only two sets of Hong Quan were practiced (mostly Shaolin did not absorb entire systems). Further more these two sets were considered fundamentals and were used in tests of basic skill. The system(s) practiced in Shandong, Shaanxi and Gansu provinces is much more extensive and complete and in fact is widely practiced in all the northern provinces of China today, especially in Shaanxi, Shandong, Gansu, Ningxia, and Xinjiang. It first spread in the provinces of Henan, Sichuan and Gansu.

Pretty well every oral and recorded legend says that Zhao Kuangyin (960-976 ), the first Song Emperor (posthumous temple name -Taizu) created Hong Quan. Zhao came from a military family in Luoyang, (not far from Shaolin Si). Here is what was passed on concerning development of Hong Quan by Huang Baoshan 黄寶珊 to one of his students in 1993. Huang Baoshan was a very knowledgeable Hong Quan practitioner from the town of Tianshui, Gansu province. Huang and his older generations, believed that the major systematization of the style is most probably during the Qing Dynasty (1368-1911) in the provinces of Shandong and Shaanxi and was spread by teachers connected with the military.

Huang Baoshan - 黄寶珊 (1905-1998) trained with Sun Yanbiao 蓀彥彪 (1884-1981) a famous Hong Quan teacher in North west China. Sun Yanbiao also taught Wang Ziping (1881-1973) and Wang Bugao (1885-1960). Sun Yanbiao's teacher was General Shao Yinhuan 紹銀環(1862-1930). Huang Baoshan (黄寶珊) also studied with General Gao Zhankui 高占魁 who was a famous expert in Hong Quan one of the three important generals to spread Hong Quan in Shaanxi. This is documented in the "Shaanxi martial arts records" and the "Sanyuan county annals" . As well according to the Gaoshan Shilu 高山史錄 "Records from Gaoshan " Gao Zhankui was a military instructor in Xian and responsible in winning a battle at Wucheng.

In 1920 Huang Baoshan also visited and studied briefly at Shaolin Si. This was during the time that Venerable Miao Xin (1876-1934) was there. According to him, before 1928, the monks of the Shaolin monastery used to practice Hongquan, but after the reconstruction following the movie "Shaolin Temple" in the 80s , the Hongquan forms they have now, although have same name, are different. The Hong Quan before 1900 was known in Shaolin within two sets, the Shaolin Xiao hongquan and Shaolin Da hongquan. In keeping with oral tradition that has been passed on to my older generation, these two forms where developed outside the temple and were imported into Shaolin. In the original system of Hongquan, the movements are long, and are classified as long range boxing (Changquan ). According to Huang Baoshan, Hong Quan movements are long, clear-cut, elegant and clear in their steps and application. Huang Baoshan, also said that the "two roads Hong fist" (erluhongquan), at Shaolin were basic routines. Having seen what was practiced at Shaolin in 1920 he said that at the Shaolin temple today, the moves are cut and short, unlike the original Shaolin Hong Quan, which is fluid with long movements of the arms.
r.

Okay, first, everyone has to stop bothering to mention modern public show Shaolin cause it is just a circus act, it has not bearing on anything anyone is concerned with. I am only concerned with the sets that all the oldest monks have passed on to Shi De Gen, Shi De Yang, Shi De Gian, Shi Se Yuan, the two Liu's, and so on. There is no use bothering with any other things that "Shaolin" circus group does. ALL THESE OLD lineages, indeed do "The Hong Quan before 1900 was known in Shaolin within two sets, the Shaolin Xiao hongquan and Shaolin Da hongquan. " I have documentation of these sets, and have learned them, this Da Hong Quan is actually the Lao Jia Quan, many people do not know that. This other Da Hong Quan that people often see is the 6 Roads of Da Hong Quan. What Huang didn't know (realized, whatever) is that there is the Xiao Hong Quan (that everyone is familiar with) then these 6 Roads of Da Hong Quan, and then there is Lao Hong Quan, they are all from Zhao Kuang Yin's Song Hong Quan, that he passed to Shaolin at some point.

Second, Shaolin Quan means all the various long fist styles practiced throughout Henan Province that was once derived from the early sets created by the martial guards at Shaolin under Fu Ju's supervision, such as Song Tai Tzu Chang Quan. There is a series of signature moves that come from this set and if they are not found in a style's sets, then they are NOT Shaolin Quan, but some other kind of long fist.

Third, Yes, but which Hong Quan do you mean?
I've been researching Hong Quan and have found that there are several style named this.

- There is a Tang Dynasty era Hong Quan practiced by their military along with a type of Pao Chui. Sometimes this style is called Long Fist Tong Bei, but it is not related to Qi or Shi Tong Bei.
- There is a Hong Quan that was practiced all along the Yellow River that was derived from the 6 Step Boxing set (which is also mentioned in General Qi Chi's famous book).
-There is Shanxi Hong Quan
-There is Denfang village Hong Quan
- There is Shaolin Hong Quan (Xiao, Da, and Lao Hong Quan sets) that comes from Zhao Kwang Yin.
- There is Shaolin Hong Quan sets that are from 1200s that come from Li Sou (of bai Yi Feng and Jue Yuan fame).
- There is Louyang Hong Quan
- There is Shandong Cha Quan system's Hong Quan
- There is Shandong Shaolin Hong Quan
- There is Shandong Ming Tai Tzu Hong Quan done by Ming Dynasty military (composed of sets named Xiao Hong, Da Hong, and Tiger Claw).

10 different Hong Quan stlyes. They are all different from each other and also there has been some interaction between these depending on the lineage.

Next, can you read Chinese? If so, please read these articles on Song and Ming Tai TZu Hong Quan,
They are all by that researcher, tell me what you think.

http://www.wushu2008.cn/viewthread.p...a=page&#37;3D4
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Art...102180940.html
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Art...102181121.html
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Art...102181332.html
http://www.tanglangquan.net/Html/Art...102181643.html

http://www.wulinzhi.com/other-chinese-martial-arts/2494

[r.(shaolin)]

Hi Sal,

The only link that's seems to be working is the first.
on first looks it - interest.. . . with some obvious, IMO, incorrect info. i.e. Qi Meigun is not a ten foot + stick.

r.