Kung-Fu and MMA

[lkfmdc]

i'm still waiting for someone criticizing CMA, who can honestly tell me:
1. they have studied EVERY style of CMA.
2. they have visited every CMA school.
3. they have fought every CMArtist.
4. they know all of CMA fighting techniques.
5. show me one good fighting technique exclusive to one martial art style & that no CMA school has similar.

Such a standard is absurd, but I've visited THOUSANDS of schools over the years, judged at huge international events, studied with a lot of huge big names, learned a lot of different systems....

and I still think CMA has to clean up it's act BIG TIME

[hungganyc]

The lack of practical hands-on-fighting in MOSt TMA schools, not just CMA, is pretty obvious when they spend more time on forms than on anything else.

Forms are great, if and when the serve the purpose to make you a better fighter.
Outside that they are window dressing.

But, that said, the fact is the majority of people, some may say vast majority, that take TMA do NOT do it for fighting so, they get what they want.

:-) where did you get these facts? How many CMA schools I the U.S. have visited? how many real CMA sifu(s) have you fought for real?

I too have a problem with my own C.MA brothers who put the wrong emphasis on forms BUT if forms are taught with knowledge of application, development of fighting fundamentals, my opinion is that forms can be a good training tool along with others.

[unkokusai]

This kung fu vs. MMA is a ridiculous debate. The idea that one is better than the other is prejudice, and unintelligent. Kung fu, MMA, Karate…… are all basically the same. The person, instructor….. make the style and not the other way around. If someone shoots a gun, it is the person pulling the trigger that determines the outcome and no matter how technically advanced the gun, the person pulling the trigger will still determine the outcome. The issue is not which form of martial arts is better, the issue is how schools, individuals, teachers….. are training their art.

Not this again...


Folks repeat this over and over again until a simple (generally reasonable) point starts to sound a lot like a cop-out.

[sanjuro_ronin]

:-) where did you get these facts? How many CMA schools I the U.S. have visited? how many real CMA sifu(s) have you fought for real?

I too have a problem with my own C.MA brothers who put the wrong emphasis on forms BUT if forms are taught with knowledge of application, development of fighting fundamentals, my opinion is that forms can be a good training tool along with others.

And that is what I said.

[Fu-Pow]

:-) where did you get these facts? How many CMA schools I the U.S. have visited? how many real CMA sifu(s) have you fought for real?

I too have a problem with my own C.MA brothers who put the wrong emphasis on forms BUT if forms are taught with knowledge of application, development of fighting fundamentals, my opinion is that forms can be a good training tool along with others.

Forms CAN be a good training tool but as I stated more often than not they become a huge distraction. They need to be less emphasized in favor of drills, training applications, sparring and competing.

The form "competitions" fuel this problem. If form competition didn't exist and the only option at tournaments was to spar or demonstrate applications do you think that so much emphasis would be put on them? I doubt it.

Tournament promoters take note:

I wish someone would hold a tournament where there was a form EXHIBITION only (because it is a "training tool" right?) and then there'd be sparring. You could only demonstrate your form if you were signed up to spar or do some kind of competition like competitive push hands.


FP

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Better yet, you could ONLY compete in forms if you have already competed in fighting.

Reply]
Originally forms were the LAST step in the training, only used to refine mechanics, and maintain cardio conditioning and other attributes.

We need to get back to the "Fight First, forms last" mentality. Having forms comps that require a previous fighting comp as a prerequisite would really help that.

The problem....few CMA would show up then. Most don't want to be fighters, so the fights would not attract to many, and this not make much money. You would need to build a huge fan base and try and make money off the spectators like MMA, Boxing and wrestling does.

[SifuAbel]

I wish someone would hold a tournament where there was a form EXHIBITION only (because it is a "training tool" right?) and then there'd be sparring. You could only demonstrate your form if you were signed up to spar or do some kind of competition like competitive push hands.
FP

Sigh, thats the way it used to be. You did hand forms , weapons, specialty like two man and then you sparred in the afternoon. It was a matter of course. The rifts came later. Suddenly some tournys decided that they would hold their fighting and form comps at the same time. Further rifts developed.

[hungganyc]

Unkokusai: LOL here we go again!

Sanjuro: my point has been clear and steady about people prejudging CMA & not about critique of CMA. Of course CMA should be critiqued along with any other martial arts.

LKFMDC: when you refer to CMA cleaning up it's act, who and what are you specifically refering to? are you refering to all CMA people?
i suppose the solution is the Sanda competition you promote?

lkfmdc wrote:

Such a standard is absurd, but I've visited THOUSANDS of schools over the years, judged at huge international events, studied with a lot of huge big names, learned a lot of different systems....

i don't think i even need to comment on that one, LOL

[SifuAbel]

The disconnect occurs when people can't differentiate between kung fu schools and kung fu itself.

Its not CMA's fault that there are some schools that don't teach fighters.

[lkfmdc]

i don't think i even need to comment on that one, LOL

Sure, it's a lot easier to try and blow off a discussion with a slight insult rather than intellligently defend your position

People I've studied directly with
Chan Tai San (Lama Pai/Choy Lay Fut)
Jeng Hsin Ping (Shuai Jiao)
YC Wong (Pek Gwa)
Thomas Yeung (Hung Ga)
Tai Yim (Hung Fut)
Yip Wing HOng (Dragon Style)
Cheung Wah (7 star praying mantis and Fukien Lion)
Ho Chih Yu (7 star mantis)
Wong Ching (Lama Pai)
Adam Hsu (Ba Ji, Long Fist)
Tam Jam (Village Hung)
"Iron Head" Li (Village Hung)

That list right there is well beyond MOST people's resumes... (care to share yours?)

In addition, of course, my sifu was close friends with
Frank Yee (Hung Ga) (was my Baai Si witness)
Chan Poi (Wah Lam) (was CTS' cousin)
Lilly Lau (Eagle Claw) (he was her godfather)
Shum Leung (Eagle Claw)
Henry Poo Yee (Southern Praying Mantis)
Tat Mau Wong (Choy Lay Fut)
I spent a lot of time around them and their schools

For around 10 years or so I judged at Jeff Bolt, NACMAF, The Eastern United States Kung Fu Federation, and the USA WKF events.... I saw THOUSANDS of performers

Again, who are you?

Clean up it's act, like actually fight, anything, Lei Tai, San Shou, San Da, Thai boxing, MMA, boxing, anything other than the arm waving forms competitions and silly point sparring that makes up the modern CMA events

[hungganyc]

Sure, it's a lot easier to try and blow off a discussion with a slight insult rather than intellligently defend your position

People I've studied directly with
Chan Tai San (Lama Pai/Choy Lay Fut)
Jeng Hsin Ping (Shuai Jiao)
YC Wong (Pek Gwa)
Thomas Yeung (Hung Ga)
Tai Yim (Hung Fut)
Yip Wing HOng (Dragon Style)
Cheung Wah (7 star praying mantis and Fukien Lion)
Ho Chih Yu (7 star mantis)
Wong Ching (Lama Pai)
Adam Hsu (Ba Ji, Long Fist)
Tam Jam (Village Hung)
"Iron Head" Li (Village Hung)

That list right there is well beyond MOST people's resumes... (care to share yours?)

In addition, of course, my sifu was close friends with
Frank Yee (Hung Ga) (was my Baai Si witness)
Chan Poi (Wah Lam) (was CTS' cousin)
Lilly Lau (Eagle Claw) (he was her godfather)
Shum Leung (Eagle Claw)
Henry Poo Yee (Southern Praying Mantis)
Tat Mau Wong (Choy Lay Fut)
I spent a lot of time around them and their schools

For around 10 years or so I judged at Jeff Bolt, NACMAF, The Eastern United States Kung Fu Federation, and the USA WKF events.... I saw THOUSANDS of performers

Again, who are you?

Clean up it's act, like actually fight, anything, Lei Tai, San Shou, San Da, Thai boxing, MMA, boxing, anything other than the arm waving forms competitions and silly point sparring that makes up the modern CMA events

First of all since my initial post i have been expecting you to come back on this thread and do exactly what you just did

no further comment necessary

[lkfmdc]

no further comment necessary

Like I said, it's "cute" to try and brush off a legitimate challenge to your absurd assertion, but your failure to address it, indeed, your active avoidance of dealing with the issues, demonstrates beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have very little of substance to defend your position

[hungganyc]

i'm still waiting for someone criticizing CMA, who can honestly tell me:
1. they have studied EVERY style of CMA.
2. they have visited every CMA school.
3. they have fought every CMArtist.
4. they know all of CMA fighting techniques.
5. show me one good fighting technique exclusive to one martial art style & that no CMA school has similar.


The CMA community certainly has somethings to improve, BUT I think it's obvious that there is a great deal of misinformation & prejudice when discussing kung fu vs MMA. The problem for the CMA community isn't MMA, karate,......the problem for the CMA community is people misrepresenting CMA.

a guy claims to be kung fu, gets into a UFC ring and gets crushed by someone from MMA. Everyone says, "oh kung fu guys can't fight". Does anyone ever question this alleged kung fu guy's background before condemming all kung fu guys? Nope.

[lkfmdc]

a guy claims to be kung fu, gets into a UFC ring and gets crushed by someone from MMA. Everyone says, "oh kung fu guys can't fight". Does anyone ever question this alleged kung fu guy's background before condemming all kung fu guys? Nope.

ah, yes, an original argument, the "there is a pile of real CMA fighters in hiding who COULD beat the champions of MMA but just haven't yet"

And with that, you've lost any credibility in this discussion

[hungganyc]

Like I said, it's "cute" to try and brush off a legitimate challenge to your absurd assertion, but your failure to address it, indeed, your active avoidance of dealing with the issues, demonstrates beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have very little of substance to defend your position

LOL, i've already made my position very clear. i'm brushing you off. Dave your a sell out. No one in the CMA community ever respected you, they respected your Sifu and btw three of the people that you used as reference have said directly to me that you are an embarrassment to your sifu and that they didn't like the way you threated your sifu around them. obviously i have no patience for you because i know enough about you. So do this thread a favor and show alittle bit of integrity and step off this subject. oh yeah, don't worry i will be introducing myself to you personally very soon. now on with the subject