Flinching (Video)

[WinterPalm]

Based on my own experiences in street fights as a teenager, getting mugged, etc. I noticed that what this video details is the exact reaction that I would have. I was not a good fighter but my ability to naturally block, which is apparently physiologically proven by everything he is saying, would come out.

Now if I take the kung fu as taught by my Sifu, we take the idea of the flinch and block from a surprise attack and turn it into a defense that makes sense and becomes a counter. Kung Fu, therefore, is building on this natural mechanism and refining it from the base movement towards a system of defense and counter attack. I've heard many people scoff at the idea of just standing there and defening against surprise attacks, but more than likely that is how it will go down on the street.

If we add in iron bridge training, iron palm, forearm conditioning, and body mechanics that resemble the flinch but reinvigorate it with alignment, you suddenly get a very realistic and workable method. Add in disarms, joint locks, sweeps, takedowns, trips, pins, and holds from these positions and a very credible approach emerges.

I'm not discountly sparring, because obviously it has so many qualities and benefits, but this type of training, for seriously minded people concerned about street defense, should not be overlooked. However, as most of us already know that street fighting and sport combat are two different things, it is interesting to see research coming out that documents through scientific principles and empirical examples, why, in many cases this is so. That said, in a street altercation, you may end up going fist o' cuffs and that is where good hard sparring comes into play.

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/C...h&1st2secs.wmv

What do you guys think?

[xcakid]

Well that all makes sense. Human beings or any animate being for that fact have the basic knowledge of self preservation born in them. From plants having various toxins or thorns etc. to animals having quils, gasses, exoskeleton, to human territorial and familial nature. We all have the basic instinct to defend and be aggressive.

In martial arts, that is the reason why you practice techniques thousands of times. So that when you do get attacked it is reactive. Muscle memory takes over and you will block and counter.

Yes there is the .25sec "oh sh!t moment" that is where sparring gets you conditioned away from that. There is also the "oh sh!t" moment when you get hit the first time. Again sparring medium to full contact should condition you not to flinch or hesitate and have the dangerous "oh sh!t" moment.

Now it seems he was presenting to LEO's. This training is good for them, or anyone that is a novice in MA. However, someone that have practiced MA for some time, say 3-5yrs., they should already have the training and muscle memory to at least block and counter properly. But like anything else, anything can happen after that.

A good example is a few weeks back. We were learning a new defensive manuever againts a hook punch. The beginning was similar to what I had learned years back. After going back and forth a few times in a static position, our instructor had us move around as if we were sparring and throwing both left and right hand. As I relaxed, I reverted back to the old technique I knew without even thinking about it. Did not know it until it was pointed out to me. It just felt right. My muscle memory from practicing that technique 100's of times took over. Subconscious basically said, "right hook punch: move this way"

This is true with using a pistol as well. You practice drawing and presenting your weapon until in becomes secondary. You can further hone these skills by competing in tactical shooting competions where you are timed, as well as scored on accuracy while moving/ducking/using cover/changing magazines.

It all comes down to training how you fight, and fight how you train. You do things repeatedly long enough, it becomes second nature and your subconscience will take over. Especially in self preservation mode. Every military throughout time have had this theory and put it in practice via war games.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, what you are saying is that you take a natural reaction, in this case the flinch, and make it a "martial one".
So, in essence, making a the martial art based on natural reactions rather than "preprogrammed" ones?

You know, that is not a "new idea", matter of fact, it should be the core PRINCIPLE in every MA.

Yes, I know its not, but it should be.

And TB knows his ****.

[WinterPalm]

Exactly! And how long have the various branches of kung fu been around? Quite a long time. And central to many systems is the usage of parrying, blocking, and countering in situations like illustrated in that video. So obviously it is not anything new. But an interesting perspective and way of approaching the issue that I haven't seen in writing or video form before.

It also highlights the necessary spliting of sparring skills and self-defense skills. Obviously not entirely mutually exclusive and somewhat mutually reinforcing, but requiring separate training time devoted to them nonetheless.

[Black Jack II]

Flinch training has been something I have been adding for years, you can find it in a number of modern hybrids or rbsd systems, some of the teachers looking at this specific subject for over 20 years, or even just straight ma instructors who happen to look for a education in the subject matter, and find a comfortable default position in train the flinch in.

Basically its trying to find a combat based application to a hard-wired primal response. It's one of the main functions that points to a lot of holes in ma systems as bullsh!t in general, simply because when your brain is in the middle of a aggressive and violent attack, in a non-pre arranged sparring situation, it has problems processing a technique under pressure, which instead can produce the flinch.

A good starting point is to find a flinch response position or default position you can train in that has the "main" focus of giving you temporary survival protection from the rain of blows coming in and that allows you to push on with some serious forward drive to close the gap and control.

You will always flinch, you cant take away the response but you can get your reaction time down better to get a combative cover going. FMA has some good ones like the spear, the wedge is another one that was a forerunner of its time, the o'neil defense from ww2, the crazy monkey boxing guard is popular with mma training, Southnarc has a good default position.

Find what feels comfortable and drill it.

[golden arhat]

Based on my own experiences in street fights as a teenager, getting mugged, etc. I noticed that what this video details is the exact reaction that I would have. I was not a good fighter but my ability to naturally block, which is apparently physiologically proven by everything he is saying, would come out.

Now if I take the kung fu as taught by my Sifu, we take the idea of the flinch and block from a surprise attack and turn it into a defense that makes sense and becomes a counter. Kung Fu, therefore, is building on this natural mechanism and refining it from the base movement towards a system of defense and counter attack. I've heard many people scoff at the idea of just standing there and defening against surprise attacks, but more than likely that is how it will go down on the street.

If we add in iron bridge training, iron palm, forearm conditioning, and body mechanics that resemble the flinch but reinvigorate it with alignment, you suddenly get a very realistic and workable method. Add in disarms, joint locks, sweeps, takedowns, trips, pins, and holds from these positions and a very credible approach emerges.

I'm not discountly sparring, because obviously it has so many qualities and benefits, but this type of training, for seriously minded people concerned about street defense, should not be overlooked. However, as most of us already know that street fighting and sport combat are two different things, it is interesting to see research coming out that documents through scientific principles and empirical examples, why, in many cases this is so. That said, in a street altercation, you may end up going fist o' cuffs and that is where good hard sparring comes into play.

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/C...h&1st2secs.wmv

What do you guys think?

most ppl dont train any of this to perfection
and so because for the most part it wont be a natural reaction so they cant use it
this might be because

1 people dont have time

2 people dont train properly

3 training properly would be brutal so no one would do it

or any number of other reasons

but when it comes down to it
most of it does not work as well as we would like hence why everybody in cma seems to resort to kickboxing

alot of good techniques are held within cma

the theory is all there

we just need to find a way of uunlocking it all

[sillyme136]

most ppl dont train any of this to perfection
and so because for the most part it wont be a natural reaction so they cant use it
this might be because

1 people dont have time

2 people dont train properly

3 training properly would be brutal so no one would do it

or any number of other reasons

but when it comes down to it
most of it does not work as well as we would like hence why everybody in cma seems to resort to kickboxing

alot of good techniques are held within cma

the theory is all there

we just need to find a way of uunlocking it all

i agree people these days that are taking martial arts they join for all the different reason ..they join not to fight really .. most people joined martial arts so that they can brag bout them taking martial arts or ..just be apart in a group and have a social clubs and some just wanna be in good shape and hates gym.. and only a very few really wanna learn how to fight and laugh when they sprain their toes or got their nose busted..

[Adventure427]

I think this way of trainning has tons of merit

[golden arhat]

i agree people these days that are taking martial arts they join for all the different reason ..they join not to fight really .. most people joined martial arts so that they can brag bout them taking martial arts or ..just be apart in a group and have a social clubs and some just wanna be in good shape and hates gym.. and only a very few really wanna learn how to fight and laugh when they sprain their toes or got their nose busted..

i jeard a really good quote once

it said

CMA has the deepest well ,and the leakiest bucket

[WinterPalm]

The thing is, after watching the video, I see a theoretical approach to what I've been learning all along!
I think it goes much further than 20 or 50 years, maybe in Western theories, but in TCMA it seems to have been around for a long, long time.

I wonder what the difference in flinch based training, and one to one sparring type of training and their carry-over to types of combat, ie sport or street. In the street you need the flinch training more than anything because you will be suddenly and surprisingly attacked and have to be able to take whatever natural reaction you have and make sure it provides the proper reaction. Sport fighting you are told you are going to fight and then put your hands up and go at it. You may still flinch but there is a different distance and situation.

I believe TCMA can be effective in the ring, but it was designed for this type of application and to judge it on ring combat is not doing a huge component of the training any justice.

[drleungjohn]

This is a mainstay of Bak Mei,only they call it "scared" energy

[David Jamieson]

weighing against sport combat does nothing to advance any theory on fighting or fight training.

the gift of fear approaches the idea and of course there are numerous iterations of the same idea throughout time, natural qi gongs v. patterned, natural reaction v. trained etc etc and the mixing and matching.

sport combat pplies the concept as well.

training in a dead way is what the problem is if people realy and actually want to learn how to do combat against an opponent.

isolated solo training doesn't do this for you and slow overly compliant drills don't either.

there must be free flow combat with the ability to throw and to accept that you will be hit and hit hard. If you cannot take it to that level, then you will not be able to effectively understand how you will act and never mind how situational events occur.

I do not recommend or condone newbs getting whacked on in the short term, but the truth of fighting and training to fight is that you have to learn when to stop cutting bait and when to start fishing.

concept and theory has little value in comparison to application. The trainer who applies more than he conceptualizes will always be ahead.

realism and full application are a rare commodity in martial arts. If you can learn in an environment that supplies those to you, then you are in the right environment to learn to actually fight.

[sanjuro_ronin]

weighing against sport combat does nothing to advance any theory on fighting or fight training.

the gift of fear approaches the idea and of course there are numerous iterations of the same idea throughout time, natural qi gongs v. patterned, natural reaction v. trained etc etc and the mixing and matching.

sport combat pplies the concept as well.

training in a dead way is what the problem is if people realy and actually want to learn how to do combat against an opponent.

isolated solo training doesn't do this for you and slow overly compliant drills don't either.

there must be free flow combat with the ability to throw and to accept that you will be hit and hit hard. If you cannot take it to that level, then you will not be able to effectively understand how you will act and never mind how situational events occur.

I do not recommend or condone newbs getting whacked on in the short term, but the truth of fighting and training to fight is that you have to learn when to stop cutting bait and when to start fishing.

concept and theory has little value in comparison to application. The trainer who applies more than he conceptualizes will always be ahead.

realism and full application are a rare commodity in martial arts. If you can learn in an environment that supplies those to you, then you are in the right environment to learn to actually fight.

Outside of real "combat/fighting" experience, sport combat training is the closest thing, quite correct.
But sometimes people need to be remind that there is a difference.

[Hatsuyuki]

So, what you are saying is that you take a natural reaction, in this case the flinch, and make it a "martial one".
So, in essence, making a the martial art based on natural reactions rather than "preprogrammed" ones?

Flinching theory if one of the first principles we are taught. As humans, we have natural instincts, just like any other animal, we don't want to be hurt. A lot of these are based on that "Don't get hit" reflex and lead to positions we, as martial artist's try to avoid. Curling up in the "Fetal position" being an extreme example. These reflexes can in fact be a great asset, using drills to change our natural response from a negative reaction, covering ourselves and going into the "Don't hurt me" mindset to a positive one, stopping the attack and having a much more "What's going on?" state of mind. Our flinching drills involve closing one's eyes and relaxing. while your eyes are closed, your training partner or partners position themselves somewhere around you. as you open your eyes, you are suddenly attacked. Having no Idea what exactly is going on you are forced to react naturally. That is, without thinking. At later stages, you're pushed violently while your eyes are closed, forcing you to catch your balance, and then defend yourself without knowing exactly where you are positioned either.
Natural reactions are important to understand and train with as opposed to against.

....After all, in the end, you're just a monkey.

[David Jamieson]

if your opponent is particularly aggressive + skilled natural reactions will lead you into a fetal position and ultimately getting pwned if that is all you are going to do.

there is plenty of unnatural things that will need to follow your flinch, things you have to train yourself to do because you won't do it naturally.

such as? you ask? lol

how about stepping into that attack to cut the power and jam the attack? This is very effective and highly unnatural and one of the hardest things to train yourself to do because you have to learn how to properly eat strikes.

using natural reactions is one thing, relying on them is entirely another.
interesting to find out what you can work with out of what you already have, but its not enough and it's certainly not the only answer and probably not the best base to learn martial art from.