Next it will be chi sao on the ground

[Vyvial]

yeah, I tend to agree with you Jiujitsu but he has an idea which works to a certain extent. His softness and flowing will keep you from getting anything useful on his arms but it would really just delay what's gonna happen in that situation. My Chi Sau really, really helped my sport sambo/judo game, so I like what the guy is doing but it just doesn't seem to be there yet, at least against an experienced mma guy.

My main question is, where does he go from there? yes he can play with the arms but where's the fight finisher? He's teaching self defense so it's not about tapping someone out.

Honestly though, how often to you get into street fights with experienced martial artist? Also his target audience is tai chi people who are not gonna be wrestling mma guys, so really is this instruction a terrible thing?

[JiuJitsu]

Vyvial

The problem is that when passing the guard I won't look to control is hands or arms, so I won't be giving him my arms to chi sau with. I will be looking to control his hip or his head (both if possible).

I take my hat off to the guy for trying and I'm not slamming him for that, but what he should do is get together with a purple belt or higher and see what works and then take it further. If some of the stuff will work on a resisting grappler then that is awesome and he can incorporate that.

[anerlich]

This guy's stuff might work to a point against someone clueless.

A better demonstration would be for him to start from a position where the other guy had him locked down in a tight side control, say with an underhook and crossface, and then escape.

In BJJ, you are taught to deal with worst case scenarios. The guy in the video is hardly doing that.

He doesn't look to be in good enough shape to do 5x5 minute rounds with white and blue belts at a BJJ gym, let alone fight in a cage.

[PangQuan]

IMO:

what this guy is doing is an initialisation process.

you cannot take what you know and apply it effeciently to a different format (ie: stand up to ground, pushands/chisao) without first learning how. we dont learn to walk by running a marathon, and you wont learn to take your stuff to the ground without taking those initial baby steps.

the understanding of process is a major help in this type of situation.

even a teacher is a student, especially when experimenting in unfamiliar or uncharted territory. in other words not being a ground player but learning.


over all i like what i see in this video, AND i agree completely that what his next step should be is to find some experienced ground guys from other styles and play with them. who knows how far he will take this...

On a side note: I have been seeing this type of mindset becoming ever more present in the CMA community, simply through multi media format.

very encouraging. IMO

[Edmund]

you cannot take what you know and apply it effeciently to a different format (ie: stand up to ground, pushands/chisao) without first learning how. we dont learn to walk by running a marathon, and you wont learn to take your stuff to the ground without taking those initial baby steps.

It's stepping the wrong direction though because it's ignoring how someone in your guard would attack. They aren't going to engage you like that. Without some hold on them, pulling them forward onto you, they don't need to push their hands down onto your arms. They're going to sit back and get their posture up so they can get their hands controlling your legs and open your guard.

That teacher's little exercise would probably be MORE applicable after the guy has passed his legs and is trying to get the hold down. He HAS to use his arms then to prevent the guy from getting his weight down on his upper body.

the understanding of process is a major help in this type of situation.

even a teacher is a student, especially when experimenting in unfamiliar or uncharted territory. in other words not being a ground player but learning.

I don't think he's shown a lot of learning though.

[Knifefighter]

It never ceases to amaze me how people try to take what they know in one area and try to apply it to another area in which it is totally inefficient and in which superior methods have already been developed.

It would be like trying to use the groundfighting methods of BJJ when doing takedowns, kicks, or punches while standing... completely stupid.

Every single thing he was doing there was absolutely wrong from a ground fighting persepective.

[cjurakpt]

what I've always found really disturbing was the fact that Masich was able to become a national push hands champion using his style of pushing: he used to do all this really weird bending over backwards stuff to dissolve incoming attacks, kinda like "ultra yin" yielding, which probably worked primarily because the rule structure allowed it - in other words, not Chinese style rules; of course, I could be wrong, maybe he did compete in more realistic venues?

but all this video shows is someone coping a smug "look at what tai chi has that those silly grabber-types don't know about"; this implication is that doing sticking like this will so befuddle an opponent on the ground that they won't know what to do with themselves and you will be able to toy with them at your leisure

what temerity to think that all these years grapplers have been doing their thing and have somehow not hit upon this vastly superior method; doesn't it occur to him that maybe this sort of thing was tried and retried many times and is not used because it doesn't work as well as (or at all) compared to the other things grapplers do on the ground?

and of course, it all works great when your "opponent" is even more cluless than you are and is obviously enjoying helping you prove your point...get this guy on the mat with a collegiate level wrestler or judoka BB and see what happens

[PangQuan]

i dont remember writing that i thought what he was doing was effective. maybe i missed that part of my own post...

I just like to see that he is trying to apply some of his gear to the ground.

that is also why i think he needs to try this out on experienced grapplers (something i do remember typing in my previous post)

in so doing he would quickly find out what is BS, and POSSIBLY, be able to salvage some of what he is trying to do and find what would actually be beneficial in a grappling format.

perhaps even .0001% of what he is trying would actually be helpful to a grappler.

there are elements to what this guy is doing that probably could be helpful. IN THE RIGHT TIME AT THE RIGHT PLACE!

but at the same time, i am not a grappler, i merely am liking the fact that this CMA guy, with little ground knowledge is making an effort to get some...or what ever he is trying.

again, back to my thoughts of him needing to roll with experienced players, ones with an open mind of course...

similar to what Wilson did in his MMA match. from his own words most of his ground game is adaptation of what he does standing up....and personally i think he did a decent job in his fight against a really experienced and established bjj player....

but what ever, we may as well never try new stuff huh?

[Knifefighter]

I just like to see that he is trying to apply some of his gear to the ground.

Wouldn't it make more sense to learn the ground game first and then see which stuff one would be able to apply?

similar to what Wilson did in his MMA match. from his own words most of his ground game is adaptation of what he does standing up....and personally i think he did a decent job in his fight against a really experienced and established bjj player....

That's precisely why he was owned every time the fight ended up on the ground.

[PangQuan]

Wouldn't it make more sense to learn the ground game first and then see which stuff one would be able to apply?




That's precisely why he was owned every time the fight ended up on the ground.

1: of course that would make sense. i dont deny that one bit.

2: he was only owned once....when he tapped. the rest were failed attempts to make him tap.

[Edmund]

i dont remember writing that i thought what he was doing was effective. maybe i missed that part of my own post...

I just like to see that he is trying to apply some of his gear to the ground.

that is also why i think he needs to try this out on experienced grapplers (something i do remember typing in my previous post)

Perhaps BEFORE he teaches this stuff in a seminar.

That's the problem. From what he's showing, he shouldn't be teaching groundfighting. He should be learning some.

Nothing wrong with experimenting but teaching it is something else!

[PangQuan]

i agree with that.

[Liddel]

The practicallity of what he is trying to "sell" to me is reinforced by who he trying to sell it to...

The Text GFX at the top of the clip says he's demonstrating it at an Aikido school for a start.

Aikido although technically sound like many MA's, has very unrealistic training IMO.
So perhaps he is spurred on by a captive audience.

Half of marketing is knowing who to sell your product to

Second - if you look amoungst the body types of the people trying his tech's out at the end of the clip you'll notice, overweight middle aged women and middle aged men with average fitness. (in appearance )

So all and all, discussing the effectivness of this technique or lack thereof against skilled fit people in a competitive environment is just too far removed IMO.

Also IME Tai Chi Toy Sao is dealing with sticking energy with NO attacks, often called push hands...its just about dealing with redirecting force away from your center. It doesnt contain following up after redirecting that force that Chi Sao contains. (in terms of punching not pushing ! )

But most of all we know that even though he states you shouldnt "hold on" when on your back, that if he had me or you for instance, raining down elbows and punches he'd bloody well be holding on, or be KTFO...

[Edmund]

Aikido although technically sound like many MA's, has very unrealistic training IMO.
So perhaps he is spurred on by a captive audience.

Guess he fit right in then.

Second - if you look amoungst the body types of the people trying his tech's out at the end of the clip you'll notice, overweight middle aged women and middle aged men with average fitness. (in appearance )

Ouch that's harsh
Fat old people can do martial arts too.

I don't see why they can't learn grappling from someone who knows what they're doing. It's not like there aren't other guys who have learnt taiji or aikido and BJJ. Plenty of guys could tailor a seminar to that audience and really get them started.

I don't think it requires that much fitness to *learn* some decent grappling in a seminar. They wouldn't be able to *compete* against a fitter opponent but at least they learn something.

So all and all, discussing the effectivness of this technique or lack thereof against skilled fit people in a competitive environment is just too far removed IMO.

I think that argument was just a "thought experiment": A polite way to make the point that the guy isn't any good.

[Wayfaring]

2: he was only owned once....when he tapped. the rest were failed attempts to make him tap.

Dude, I want to roll with somebody that does compliant push hands dance skillz like that on the ground. Can I please? Can I?