Xiao Hong Quan Application Question

[xcakid]

In Xiao Hong Quan there is a movement where the left hand encircle the head then punch as you step forward. Then the right hand encircles the head, steps fwd and does a double punch.

As an example, it is done here on this video at right around 0:23 seconds.
Xiao Hong Quan

Can anyone tell me the application, purpose, philosiphy behind this movement?

Thanks in advance.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

The movements in the video are similar to movements found in the first Crane form that is taught in Fee Man Ong's Kwan Ying Do system. The application can be interprted as an overhead block that flows into a forward strike, or as a defense against a hair (queue) grab. Of course, I am sure there are probably many other applications. I have no idea how it is interpreted by those who teach the Xiao Hong Quan form.

Richard A. Tolson

[xcakid]

.....or as a defense against a hair (queue) grab..... Richard A. Tolson

OK I can see that. Hair grab seems to be more plausible since the movement encircles the entire head. Thx.

Would like to hear more theories. Anyone, anyone....Bueller.....anyone.

[Jingwu Man]

the way my sigong learnt it at shaolin, it was a throw.
You grab the lead arm of the opponent sink and put your legs behind your opponent push your shoulder into his hip/stomach pulll on the arm and lift him up onto your shoulders and over. Devestating throw, but tough on the back/legs if you don't do it properly.

It's better than this but it's the best I could find.
at the 1:43 mark- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF4VbwaKjcU

[xcakid]

Talk about hidden application I woulda never figured a throw for that. Cool thx.

[luohan]

this movement is called
yun2 ding3 chong quan2 云 顶 冲 拳 - cloud top (like clouds covering the top/head - def) thrust punch followed by
yun2 ding3 qi1 xing1 云 顶 七 星 - cloud top seven star

i was taught that after the defence above the head, the palm of the hand turns down in a conch form,protecting the side of the head(putting the hand very close to the head and protecting of a lateral attack) followed by your punch/attack

[Royal Dragon]

I always just saw it as a cover form an in comming hit. I wish the Youtube clip of the app was not removed. Do you have another clip that shows it?

[wutangforever]

My sifu told me it was to counter someone grabbing your hair, and in doing so you pull the opponent slightly closer to you to have a more effective punch.

[Pk_StyLeZ]

i take it as slap to the face
another slap to the face
punch punch
=D

[Sal Canzonieri]

In Xiao Hong Quan there is a movement where the left hand encircle the head then punch as you step forward. Then the right hand encircles the head, steps fwd and does a double punch.

As an example, it is done here on this video at right around 0:23 seconds.
Xiao Hong Quan

Can anyone tell me the application, purpose, philosiphy behind this movement?

Thanks in advance.

Sigh. Have someone grab your wrists, close your eyes just so you don't get distracted, and then do the movements EXACTLY as done in the form.

You will see what the application is.

[Royal Dragon]

Thanks Sal YOU Da Man!!

Ever think about doing a commercial applications video on all these corner stone Shaolin sets?

[The Xia]

Sigh. Have someone grab your wrists, close your eyes just so you don't get distracted, and then do the movements EXACTLY as done in the form.

You will see what the application is.

I sigh at that application!
When is the last time someone has grabbed both of your wrists (or tried to) in a serious fight? I can’t imagine that the above application is all there is to it.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I sigh at that application!
When is the last time someone has grabbed both of your wrists (or tried to) in a serious fight? I can’t imagine that the above application is all there is to it.

Doing it that way is meant to point out the chin na (joint lock) movements in the postures. Once you can see it, you can go from there to other applications. Once you can see it as a chin na movement, THEN you can also apply it as a fast ward off against two fast incoming attacks and making an opening so that you can stomp in to their instep and do a Xing Yi like heart punch. but there are many details to this that you can't see right away unless you practice it and then transfer what you learn from Chin na to striking.
It is even a takedown throw in application.

Of course there are more applications, there always are, but all old Shaolin stuff is really based on being grabbed and the resultant chin na that is done then.
They didn't act like the KF movies and go punching and kicking.
Old Shaolin is based on being ambushed and in a sudden self defense situation, they didn't square off and "fight" someone.
I've done over 30 years of research on TCMA. You have to know the CONTEXT that these ancient sets were developed in (when, where, why)

Most people really don't understand what applications even really are.
There is no such thing as a set pattern of applications.
Applications are a CONCEPT, if you are well versed in the foundations of a style and memorized the movements in a set, then there are endless applications for each posture, especially because ALL TCMA movements are simultaneously offense and defense. They are made so you cannot lose in an ambush.

How to I explain all this, no offense meant to you personally - just speaking in general, without winding up teaching people.
If someone wants to learn how to apply the moves in their TCMA, I am totally willing to get together.

[Lucas]

The movement directly before the one you are talking about I was taught as a throw (the movement directly after the whip), this also leads you to have your arms somewhat extended before going into the movements in question.

When I asked about this movements, my sifu did grab my wrists as well as my hair and had me continue. was interesting.

also;

as the left arm starts to circle the head, i was also shown the right hand to a groin strike (ridge hand style), as well I was shown the first strike from the left hand can also be done as a second groin strike instead of an initial thrust strike.

I like the right hand coming up into a groin strike personally, and I always invision that when i perform that section. though I am partial to the left being a straight punch rather than a second groin strike. (which requires you to drop your left to your waist rather than keeping it ready and going for the nose/throat/solarplexus strike)

but chin na is peppered through out the entire set

But like Sal said, context is everything.

[xcakid]

Gotta love kung fu forms. Tons of application from just one movement.