Shou Shu - real or another made-up melange?

[turbo76]

[turbo76]

[joedoe]

That is a bit of a cop out don't you think? So you are saying that we cannot learn anything from history because we weren't there?

[Brad]

That's understandable, but I was just pointing out one of my problems with frauds. Just because some of us can spot him for what he is, doesn't mean you would be able to. It's not like you were an expert in Chinese martial arts before you started. All I ask is that you don't automatically dismiss everyone's opinions, and that you make an effort to check it out yourself. My family's been there before, and that was after we'd been with the guy for 7 years! Of course in my case it was easier because it turned out some of the people my "karatefu" teacher had claimed he'd learned from extensively were still alive Got some interesting letters, lol ;-)

[Akuma]

If the guy was a Tracy BB(hypothetically speaking), it'd mean that he's a pretty decent martial artist anyway right?--and kenpo is a decent street effective MA from what I've read.

I guess my point is, as long as the stuff taught works then that's the most important thing. Plus, maybe he has friends that go there etc...and because he's convinced the style works he figures, ahh well who cares about the history as long as it works and the people there are good.

It is kind of dodgy though that they probably made up some story about it's origins or whatever but if that's the only problem with it and the ppl there do have integrity...then I sort of can see it from turbo76's point of view.

I'm not saying I agree with turbo76 but only that I can see his point of view.

[Brad]

not sure how one could know without being there, cant go back 20-30 years.

There are ways. In some cases there are old written manuals, you can find edvidence of styles from old stories, tracing geneaology, comparing oral histories of various people, etc. For example, Tai Tzu Chang Quan is a style that can be traced back to the old emperor from written documents and drawings (ask Royal Dragon about this, it's one of his favorite subjects ;-) ). There's also a lot of styles where the link is obvious just by watching someone practice the forms. There's all kinds of ways. For Shou Shu, the first step would be tracing this Moore guy's background independently(in other words, not just interviewing him and his students ;-)).

[turbo76]

[shaolin kungfu]

But if it was kenpo, which is a well respected ma, there would be no need to lie. If moore was a black belt in kenpo, why doesn't he just say so? I think the fact that the history is made up, points to the effectiveness of the art. If the art was truly effective, and moore had created it, he would want to claim it as his own. I never heard helio gracie or bruce lee claim some messed up lineage.

[Brad]

but if that's the only problem with it and the ppl there do have integrity...

But how can someone say they have integrity if they willingly promote a lie? And, in my opinion, saying "I don't care whether he's a fraud or not, as long as I learn to kick ass!" is just as bad as making up the lies yourself. I feel that when you lie to people even if you give them the tools to defend themselves, you're still hurting them in other ways. There's potential for serious phychological damage when someone you trust turns out to be a fraud, especially among children and young teens. Adults might be able to handle it ok, but kids tend to take things like this kind of hard. And just saying,"what they don't know, can't hurt them" isn't a very good argument either as the chances of them finding out eventually are pretty high, and the longer they believe a lie, the harder it will hit if they find out the truth.

[turbo76]

[Brad]

i know some people who have studied Ed Parkers Kenpo, its pretty good, but it doesnt flow like Shou Shu, and its got too much wasted motion.

Are those your observations or your teachers? How much experience do you have fighting experienced people from Ed Parkers Kempo? Do you really know if that "motion" was wasted or did it serve a purpose?

[turbo76]

[shaolin kungfu]

There's no way all that crap about da mo didn't make you at least question it. The story(to anyone that has looked into it) is obviously false.

[joedoe]

turbo76, have you tried searching for any info on Shou Shu? Even an internet search?

Tell you what. Have you ever heard of Wu Chu Chuan (AKA Wuzuquan, Ngor Chor Kun, Five Ancestor's Fist)? Or maybe Seng Men? They are 2 lesser known styles of kung fu. I assure you if you do a google search you will find at least 1 site on each style.

Have a go. Please don't bury your head in the sand.

[shaolin kungfu]

Do you regularly spar against other experienced martial artists? Do you have any experience on which to base your statements of other arts inefficiency? Just because shou shu works on the average uneducated hack, doesn't mean it works against all other styles.