aikido is fake?

[phoenixrising]

How many of you ever took a belt test this difficult? (just curious)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=YziUvBqX-zI

[Merryprankster]

That difficult?

No.

I can safely say that none of my belts were ever earned by having three people run headlong at me, full tilt and completely off balance, who threw themselves or fell as soon as I touched them with my fingers.

[BruceSteveRoy]

i didnt see a reasonable attack but i did see a lot of compliant 'attackers'. i did aikido for a few years and personally feel it is a good art conceptually. what it stands for is great. it has some great maneuvers. however, i have not seen a realistic training dojo ever. i would love to see it. but seriously if he yelled hajime at 3 ppl that knew how to fight as opposed to 3 aikido practitioners (who really only learn to defend) he would not have 3 guys blindly running at him attempting to ... tackle? it doesnt even create a realistic replication of 3 ppl that don't know how to fight. if you had 3 average untrained schumcks off the street odds are even they wouldnt attack so poorly. i dunno. anyway, 3 ppl that knew how to fight would not go in like that full tilt which means they dont have the momentum aikido needs for throwing or countering them. and the only branch i have seen that can even do anything remotely close to defending a jab is kokikai aikido. i like the spin that marayama (sp) sensei put on the style. but even still i have not seen a realistic example in training or in the real world. i would say if you are thinking of doing aikido you should study bagua instead. i see similar principals but bagua (from what i have seen and experienced) is a more direct and efficient way of doing it. it does less of the unnecessary stepping and direction changes for the same end result. i actually recently got into a conversation with an aikidoka that was telling me that it was the perfect art. and when i tried to ask about its defense against a jab or non compliant attacker he said aikido isnt about violence its about talking your way out of aggression. than said i have too much of a western mindset to understand. to which i said but in real life some ppl are just a$$holes and won't be talked down. they want to fight and they will so what then? and he kept saying aikido isnt about fighting. so we went in circles. but yeah thats my opinion for what its worth. maybe i do have a western mindset if that means i am looking for something with practicle application. dont get me wrong i like theory and philosophy of martial art too but if thats what i am looking for i would just go and read a book about aikido and save the money it takes to sign up for a dojo and the time it takes to train. that is if all i want is the rhetoric. i also doubt this guy had a strong handle on the idea of bushido and the warrior mentality. he is probably just another dirty hippy that thinks he knows the secrets of the universe.

[Samurai Jack]

Did either of you actually watch the entire video? The earlier stuff with Stephen Seagal demonstrating techniques during a class are just that; classroom instruction. The belt tests are at the end of the video.

So if you can find the time to sit through all the admittedly silly "headlong", "off balance", "dirty hippies", and have the patience to see what was being referenced (i.e. the belt tests), maybe you could answer the following questions rephrased for clarity:

Have you ever had to randori (i.e. pressure test) with three people or more at once? If so, what was it like?

For extra credit you could also reveal whether you receive classroom instruction before you attempt a technique, or do you just try whatever random activity you can think of when you (spar, roll, randori etc.) and call it (insert your favorite martial art here)?

[Merryprankster]

Samurai Jack - Oops.

I'll sit through till the end. Thanks for the heads up.

As far as the first one, I've had to randori multiple attacker situations, but never for a belt test. It's hard *shrug* pure and simple. You have to very quickly define short goals. Emphasis is always on making space to escape, or using one person as a shield while you try to find a hole to go through. At least it was for me.

As far as the second question, I don't understand it. Not trying to be a jerk.

As to "Aikido being fake," it's like anything else. Train hard and realistically and it'll work. An Aikido guy showed up at a BJJ tournament, wristlock threw a dude I know who is very good, and eventually won his match by being "unthrowable/untakedownable" for the rest of the period.

[Merryprankster]

OK - got to the end. And yes, that's exactly what sparring 3 people who are intent on dragging you down and overbearing you looks/feels like.

[Mr Punch]

As to "Aikido being fake," it's like anything else. Train hard and realistically and it'll work. An Aikido guy showed up at a BJJ tournament, wristlock threw a dude I know who is very good, and eventually won his match by being "unthrowable/untakedownable" for the rest of the period.

Not disregarding the first two sentences of this quote but what the guy did is already touted as being complete fantasy across most of the internet, including most of the BJJ guys you'll talk to:

1) Wristlock throws are frequently ridiculed, and

2) Being 'unthrowable/untakedownable' (BTW, why were you using inversion marks? - seems like he really was for the duration of that match! ) is of course complete nonsense.

I've used pure aiki footwork to completely avoid people shooting on me in the grappling sparring in my MMA class, and I've even managed to take them down (in a messy heap but) on my terms (in aiki, this was in one case my kneeling and having some degree of control of him... I then couldn't finish him as it was early in my days in MMA and I didn't know what to do, though since then I managed to pull off a dunno wtf you'd call it, where you have them on their back and push their elbow into their jaw, rolling them and pinning them onto their side, which is a standard aiki finish to kotegaeshi). Of course I had pretty much the whole mat space in which to prance about so it wouldn't have worked in a ring or probably the street.

I'm not dissing you, just the paradigms that everybody takes as scripture.

Couple of BTWs: strange question - do you think he won 'fairly'?

And what wristlock throw did he use?

[xcakid]

My 1st Black test in Shaolin Kempo was somewhat similar. We had to spar with 2 people which included take downs(sweeps,throws). No not 3 but two was enough. This was after a 3 mile run, 50 or so push ups, 50 or so sit ups. Then doing all forms from white to black. Then doing defensive technics from white to black. Then doing weapons forms. Then doing knife and clubs defensive technics from white to black. Then one on one sparring then two on one sparring. We had very little rest cause we rotated. A group of us were doing forms while another group would do defensive technics and the other would do weapons forms all at the same time. Then rotate. It was 3+hrs of pure torture all we had were brief water breaks and small breaks to get you sparring gear on or off or to get your weapons. I ended up with a jammed thumb and 2 cracked floating ribs on the left side. When you are sparring tired, control is hard to come by.

[Samurai Jack]

Merry Prankster:

My second question was a result of my being a little miffed at the presumptions being made. I'm sorry about that. I've seen aikido misrepresented here several times in the last six months or so, which ticks me off, because the posters often have no idea what they are seeing or commenting on.

It's akin to someone saying, "Those Brazilian Ju Jitsu guys have incredible kicks, but if you take them down, they're totally out of their element."

Yes, it has been that incorrect on most occasions.

I don't mind people discussing aikido's weak points as long as they do it accurately. It's not cool to spread misinformation.

All of that said, I am curious about BJJ's training methods, as there are no legitimate schools (recognized by any BJJ organizing body) in my city.

Do you typically get instruction in technique before you start rolling? The way it is discussed around here, it often seems that you learn the techniques by trail and error while being pummeled by senior students. LOL

[Samurai Jack]

Mr. Punch:

How have you adjusted your own training to shore up aikido's weaknesses, and what are those weaknesses in your opinion?

I was recently reprimanded for doing randori with a few senior students on our own time "because (I) wasn't ready." However, I easily handled every one of my partners creatively and effectively, while *they* seemed a little hesitant and confused when it was their turn. I have done judo, boxing, and kungfu for years before coming to aikido though, and was really comfortable doing full-speed randori. Sometimes I think we are discouraged from testing ourselves for too long, but judging from most of my peers, I'd agree that they "weren't ready". I do know aikido "works" though. I use it often in my job actually.

I'm just curious about your thoughts, as you are the senior most aikidoka on this board.

[Charles T Rose]

http://www.nwmaacademy.com/

[Mr Punch]

Mr. Punch:

How have you adjusted your own training to shore up aikido's weaknesses, and what are those weaknesses in your opinion?

I quit training!

Erm, well, I'm currently looking for a good dojo, and not very actively for various private reasons.

If I was back in the UK, my old sensei there was always open to new methods and ways of training and injecting more realism into things, and we had a lot of LEOs and doormen, and trainers of both...

I'll get back to this to answer it more fully tomorrow: it's late here now.

I was recently reprimanded for doing randori with a few senior students on our own time "because (I) wasn't ready." However, I easily handled every one of my partners creatively and effectively, while *they* seemed a little hesitant and confused when it was their turn. ...I'd agree that they "weren't ready". I do know aikido "works" though.

What grade are you at and what does that entail in your org (what did you have to do for your last grading? In my school in the UK, everybody does randori, although of course nobody really tries to nail the lower grades. The one-on-one jiyuu-geiko is often more useful I tend to think as you can go to town on your partner a bit more, but that does need a higher level of skill I think.

Why did you think your kohai weren't ready? Was it just that they were hesitant? That may be because they were worried about getting hurt or hurting you. Aiki's so sweet!

I'm just curious about your thoughts, as you are the senior most aikidoka on this board.

Aw shucks, am I really? I would doubt that very much: I gave up grading after shodan for various reasons to do with differences in training practice, and haven't regularly been in a dojo for about 5 years. A couple of lurkers outrank me I think, in knowledge and grade, though haven't seen them around for ages.

[Mr Punch]

http://www.nwmaacademy.com/

I missed the point.

[Samurai Jack]

Ah, the link is to a dojo in my 'hood for BJJ. Thank you Charles. Do you happen to train there? Can you answer the question concerning the training method?

[Samurai Jack]

Yes, randori is still a very weird topic to me in my dojo. I have to admit that when I began training we did a lot of what I consider to be randori (from my judo background), namely freestyle live practice. We did this with Sensei's blessing between classes, and recieved formal instruction for a while during a few classes.

Apparently this is not what my Sensei considers randori, however. To him that means multiple attackers, and a differnet set of conditions. i realize that this isn't how everyone in the world views it, but it is how he views it. We do very little live testing anymore. I miss it. I've been told to stop. I don't know if it's because he didn't want people to get hurt or not, but Sensei has made it clear that he dosen't feel we're ready.

I feel my seniors were nervous, and that they didn't know how to do thier thing in a live, full speed setting. Not a big surprise as we don't do it anymore.