something got me thinking...

[Oso]

what's the real difference between a school that requires contracts of it's students...thereby mandating that for a time, they only train with them (unless said student is wealthy enough to afford multiple contractual obligations)...and the old school sifu who would refuse to allow a student to cross train?

[rogue]

One uses loyalty and guilt, while the other uses economics.

[The Xia]

I don't see "no cross training!" rules as a characteristic of an old school sifu. I really don't get where this notion that cross training isn't old school came from. Cross training is present throughout TCMA history and plenty of big name sifus practice multiple styles and have had multiple teachers. As for contracts that say you can only train with that school, I wouldn't sign it. I think a contract that prohibits students from learning under other schools and teachers says something about the school. The impression I would get from that is that they are worried their martial arts aren’t up to par with others or they are cultish. I would also think it could be both and more. I wouldn’t train in such a school.

[syn]

Since this is based from my worries, I'd just like to say that my sifu in no way is restricting on us, and it's a pretty loose family, people come and go. But I've heard that it can **** sifus off to know that you're training somewhere else without them knowing or anything, because they can be teaching you conflicting techinques, and it can be deconstructive to developing one style.

I'm almost positive if I gave my sifu heads that I want to train a bit from another style he'd be fine with it, and maybe want to hear a bit about my experience if it's something he doesn't know alot about. He's a pretty understanding guy, and as long as you're reasonable with him he's reasonable with you.

[bakxierboxer]

what's the real difference between a school that requires contracts of it's students...thereby mandating that for a time, they only train with them (unless said student is wealthy enough to afford multiple contractual obligations)...and the old school sifu who would refuse to allow a student to cross train?

If one is simply "Joe Student", it should be no big deal.

OTOH, if "Joe Student" is a disciple it's a very big deal to go elsewhere. It's tantamount to saying that your SiFu's very best is not good enough.

If you are a disciple in an honest relationship with your SiFu, when the time comes that you should move on, he'll give you a referral to a SiFu/senior who will supply whatever it is that you need next.

Pete

[Meat Shake]

I dunno...
SD had contracts.
Sifu kirk on the other hand...
Hehehe...
He would eagerly be waiting for you to come back if you trained with someone good....
"what did you learn? Lets see if it works."

He was always up for new things and new ways of working in to throws.

[xcakid]

On the topic of contracts:

Simple economics and time management. Typically schools hire a billing company to do all the billing for them. This frees up the time that would otherwise be used doing your own books and billing. You would instead get a monthly accounting/statement. Second this tends to offer saving for the school in that it bypasses credit card fees charged by credit card processing companies. This also gives an added convenience to the student by being able to use CC or EFT.

On the topic of cross training:

In my experience, both student and teacher. Cross training is bad for a novice. For example; if one was taking kung fu and also take tae kwon do. There is a difference in the styles and how they are executed. A novice will have a hard time decerning which should be learned first. It will also confuse the student on what is proper in one style and what is not.

However, a student with some experience and can understand concepts and application, I don't see the harm in it.

I also believe in cross training in another art that will compliment your current one. Kenpo and BJJ for instance. I personally like the Kung Fu and Firearms training route with a little bit of Arnis thrown in.

[Oso]

One uses loyalty and guilt, while the other uses economics.

but the outcome is the same: a student may be forced in to staying somewhere he doesn't want to out of guilt or a financially binding contract. which motive is the purer?

The Xia: you still see it fairly often (the old school teacher thing)...It happened to me and it's happened to other posters here. And, of course, you see it in the contract schools every day. I haven't said that the 'contract' specifically prohibited a student from training elsewhere but you're average Joe generally can't afford to be paying two teachers at once.

If one is simply "Joe Student", it should be no big deal.


OTOH, if "Joe Student" is a disciple it's a very big deal to go elsewhere. It's tantamount to saying that your SiFu's very best is not good enough.

If you are a disciple in an honest relationship with your SiFu, when the time comes that you should move on, he'll give you a referral to a SiFu/senior who will supply whatever it is that you need next.

Pete

I think it's the Joe Student that this situation affects (or is that effects?). The disciple has made a decision through time spent with the teacher to stay with him. The Joe Student who initially thinks school A is what he wants but after a few months decides it isn't has a harder time leaving to find what he wants under the two conditions stated above: guilt & financial obligation

i do agree with your last.


Meatshake: that's only vaguely an oblique response.


xcakid: you didn't really address the debate itself.

[rogue]

but the outcome is the same: a student may be forced in to staying somewhere he doesn't want to out of guilt or a financially binding contract. which motive is the purer?

Exactamundo. A person is still restricted if you use silk ropes or gaffers tape. I may be a little too Western in my attitude but I think people shouldn't be tied to a school or teacher except by them wanting to really be there. My JJJ teacher never had contracts and didn't mind if people left to go study elsewhere, he knew those of us who did and wanted what he was teaching would be back. Those who wanted something else would leave anyway.

[Black Jack II]

There are ways out of contracts. I believe the general ruling has to do with how far one lives from the location, in gyms that I have been to if you move 25 miles from the gym due to work, there is a law that breaks the contract.

I heard this from a friend who runs a gym in Naperville but I don't know for sure.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I see nothing wrong with having a contract for the first year of training at a particular school. That would scare away the dabblers.


mickey

[bakxierboxer]

On the topic of contracts:

I also believe in cross training in another art that will compliment your current one. Kenpo and BJJ for instance. I personally like the Kung Fu and Firearms training route with a little bit of Arnis thrown in.

... aaaand if you were fortunate enough to have a SiFu who could also teach you some "Gun Fu"?

Pete

[bakxierboxer]

... The disciple has made a decision through time spent with the teacher to stay with him. ...

i do agree with your last.

Most folks don't know this, but some styles also have a point at which a disciple will be "sent out" in order that he can "look around" and make double d**ned sure that he really has found "his" teacher & is willing to make the final commitment.

Pete

[bakxierboxer]

Exactamundo.

"Not-xactamundo"

My JJJ teacher never had contracts and didn't mind if people left to go study elsewhere, he knew those of us who did and wanted what he was teaching would be back.

Ummmm....this *is* a TCMA forum and the mores/ways are seldom the same as those of a relatively "open" JMA sport such as "JJJ".

Pete

[ngokfei]

the idea of contracts was adopted by martial Arts Schools (TKD) originated with Health Clubs.

todays schools are very much forumulated around the Health Club.

The better schools don't just push contracts, they push programs/courses.

The trend is to emulate a university. You pay this amount and you learn this material. A particular time frame is agreed upon (1yr-3yr) where at the end you have learned this material (if you follow the formate, don't miss classes, etc). And it doesn't guarantee the individual a degree, promotion etc. The test has to be passed.

Its just like going to college. YOu sign up for geometry for $$$ and its meets on this day and lasts for 1 semester. If you drop out you don't get your money back and if you fail you don't get the course credit.

The act of allowing the student to make monthly payments is the only difference.

Voiding contracts is possible. Each state has its own rules. Some enforce that a contract cannot exceed a set $$ to be enforcible. Alot of schools who have a 3 yr black belt program have found that their contracts can not be enforcible for this reason.

Gyms method of allowing you to get our of the contract was: Dr's Note or Moving

Today they have a cancelation fee. The one I belong to has a $100 fee for cancelation.

Some schools use an "open ended agreement" which means that a student signs a monthly EFT (electronic funds transfer) where a set amount is withdrawn monthly. A student can stop this by giving a 30 day notice.


Alot of schools now are adopting multiple methods: ex:

Trial Lesson Pgm - 2 lessons for $19.95
Trial Program - 3 months for $300

Monthly $100 (i discourage this method, no commitment)
Open Ended Agreement (EFT) $90 a month
a 1 Year Contract $80 a month
Pay up front 1 year $70x12

etc.