Does anyone know anything about this school?

[Royal Dragon]

First, I would like to comment on the Makiwra. I don't likethe training because I feel it is too brutal on the knuckles. In think the Chinese Mung bean bag is a much better thing to hit becasue there is a moveable medium spreading the blow out over the entire surface. I belive this also strengthens a greater area than the makiwra does.

Honestly. I remeber the Iron Plam bag Abbate had at the River Grove school, and I feel you are better off hanging that on the wall and hitting that instead, over a Makwira board.

As for Abbate, I know he was trained in some sort of Vietnamiese snake style if I remember right. I was not there long, but the training made a lasting impression on me and I do wish I could have continued.

As for not teaching you the goods, or holding back, I would guess the opposite happened. Forms were originally for the teachers to organise thier curriculem. Learning to fight and use the techniques in the forms were what was originally taught first. Learning the Form Abbate's way meant you REALLY learned the form, even if you never got the final choreography of it.

I don't have any doubt of his authenticity, but I am curious as to his history and all. When I was there we were learning Wing Chun as an intro style from Rocco Lombardo. But it was clear Master Abbate had his own system to teach after that. I would like to know what that system was, and where he learned it. I vaugly remember it came from a Chinese teacher, and was some sort of Veitnamese snake style, but I really don't know the details. I do know Master Tsai came in much later in his carreer, and he was already a top level martial artist by the time Tsai came on the scene.

Last I saw master Abbate, he had been very sick, and had lost a LOT of weight. I hear he is better now though. I am not sure where he is now, but if your history with him is as significant as you say, I would sugjest you find him, and visit.

As for the topic of my post, I am very curious how Ganji fits into this whole thing now. If he is claiming rank in Abbate's system, then how did he get that?

[larryc]

I figured that lengthy book I wrote would trigger quick responses...thanks, guys.

Mas Jdut- funny you mention St Viator gym-- those fights were after my time as a thug and after I moved away from the Chicago area so I never got to indulge, but I went and watched some when I visited because my brother stays in touch with the Chicago martial arts scene. I really liked Jimmy Zibilski's fighters (from Z martial arts) at those St Viator things because they seemed to show up prepared in terms of conditioning. There's another Gangi connection-- one of Gangi's black belts who I used to throw leather with - told me Jimmy Z was at one time a student of Gangi's very early in his training. He introduced me to Jimmy Z. From running into him occasionally, my impression is that Jimmy Z is a totally friendly, standup guy who is passionate about boxing and kickboxing. He had me over to train one day back in something like 1992 and I got to scrap with him and his guys. He's a great fighter himself, and fighters he trains are usually well prepared. I hear that his brother teaches something more traditional, though I have no firsthand experience with him. I presume he is good if he is Jimmy's brother. My active period was in the early and mid 1980's -- the full contact tourneys were in Rockford (Bad Brad Hefton was the local hero) and in Franklin Part at Frank Salemi's kickboxing club. You said you thought Abbate and Gangi ran tournament schools--- true re Gangi, but like i wrote yesterday, Abbate's students did not train in any way for point fighting or forms.

Hey Royal Dragon- thanks for offering your thoughts on makiwara. Just to clarify and for the purpose of discussion and not debate- it sounds like you might misunderstand makiwara based on your saying to hang the iron palm bag on the wall. The iron palm is hand conditioning. The makiwara is developing the entire body in the motion of your punches and kicks. Two different purposes, though the makiwara side-effect is some hand conditioning.

The grotesque knuckle-deformation you allude to is a clear sign someone does it wrong. I have friend in shotokan who made his knuckle look weird and what i found is that he cheaply and hastily hung up one of those magazine-order brick-like contraptions on a wall that does not give when he hits it. WRONG. The makiwara is supposed to flex when you hit it. Not too much flex, but enough so you are forced to plant your feet, twist your hips, and really let fly to make the thing flex. It flexes because it is a board sticking up out of the ground. The pad is just hard enough to hurt a until you get used to it, but not wimpy soft like most heavy bags which would do nothing to train you to hit with the isolated knuckle (or to precisely aim at a small target). When I started years ago I could not hit it too hard without feeling a bruise in the knuckle, so I hit it softly and gradually built up. The past few years I hit it as hard as I can- many times per day- no pain, no odd-looking hands, no injuries (I play guitar well - 30 years). I filled a large plastic tub with 220 pounds of contrete mix and I anchored into it 3 2x4's (6 feet, 5 feet, 4 feet) all sandwiched together and connected to each other at the very bottom with the 6 footer facing me. I attached three of those canvas rectangular makiwara pads at three different heights on the 6 footer. I placed the contraption against the concrete wall in the garage and voila- this thing has held up for years. When you hit the pad, the three boards flex and the tub of concrete is braced against the wall so it won't migrate when you hit it. Try it, you'll thank me.

So really, I was asking if the Chinese arts have something that you train on like you would a makiwara where the thing gives enough when you hit it so you can really sink a full strike, kick or block into it with your entire body (as opposed to standing above a table in a non-fighting stance and dropping hands on an iron palm bag).

Abbate never mentioned a "Vietnamese snake style" when I knew him. Someone in this thread posted earlier a history of Abbate's style from an old Cobra Kai manual Abbate used to give his students. I read it and do recall that is what Abbate told us when I was there. So re-read that-- that's the way I heard it, too. I really think his kung fu started with Tsai. Before that, I think he was in boxing and either karate or tkd. Go check out Tsai's school. Someone there can tell you about Abbate or maybe introduce you to him. If you're lucky you can train with him. It's a rare and valuable opportunity to learn from someone who has done the things he has done, and for so many years.

Royal Dragon- you asked again how does Gangi fit in to Cobra Kai. As I explained, they did not train together and i doubt that they would because they are so different in many ways. He and Abbate know each other from being in the profession at the same time in the same geographic location. Both being friendly guys, they probably say hello to each other at tournaments. At least they did at one tournament in 1983-- I was fighting in the Letuli (Fred and Tom - big names in the karate world) Illinois Karate Championships and my opponent and I got hot-headed and way out of control (I was 18 - forgive me). Abbate was the center judge and he grabbed me by the back of my belt and collar and started pulling me off of my opponent (we were on the ground trading punches) and he shouted at Gangi to "control your fighter or I'll knock him out." Gangi said "he's not my fighter...go ahead and try to knock him out" (Thanks for the support, Joe. And thanks, Steve, for not knocking me out!). I ended up with stitches in my forehead - not from Abbate, but from my opponent's elbow, and a nice second place plaque that hangs on the wall in my parents' basement. What an embarassing display of poor sportsmanship and immaturity. Someone should have revoked my black belt. Hey- I was 18 and full of testosterone. The other guy and I did apologize to each other and he insisted I keep the second place plaque even though I did not want it.

You said Gangi claimed rank in Cobra Kai. I don't know the facts, but I see Gangi uses the word "associate black belt" when referrring to Cobra Kai. I THINK that is like what I got. When Abbate let my Kempo instructors test me for black belt at Abbate's Cobra Kai school, after the evening's events ended Abbate presented me with a Cobra Kai Associate Black Belt Certificate. He gave it to me without any discussion and, quite honestly, I did not view it as him awarding me any rank in his school or system. (I saved it, of course.) I viewed it as his way of professionally acknowledging that I earned a black belt from a school/instructor that he considers reputable and valid. In fact, after having been a student in Cobra Kai a few years earlier, and participating in the testing of two of Abbate's black sashes, I truly doubt Abbate would simply hand out black belt ranks to anyone, including me. The 3 day long black sash test at Cobra Kai was a hellish ordeal that nearly put these guys in the hospital from a combination of injuries and physical exhaustion. It would be so unfair to these guys if he simply handed it out.

That raises a point of view I'd like to voice: I think too many people, especially Americans and certain Japanese organizations, place far too much importance on rank and titles. It has no purpose other than arrogance and ego- or a way to generate revenue if you run a martial arts school. Look, a true master of martial arts should have the discipline and humility to treat a 50 year black belt and a 5 day beginner, a CEO and a janitor, a priest and a prostitute, with the same amount of kindness, dignity and RESPECT. You should hide everyone's belts so everyone treats each other with the same amount of respect. All people are created equal and deserve respect. All of us have faults. And this calling yourself "Shihan" is a trend that only popped up recently and now it looks like every schmuck who runs a school in a strip mall calls himself Shihan. Please. The overabuse of the term has now made it mean nothing. And then comparing styles...whose is more authentic...whose lineage is pure...who can memorize and recite names...how many forms do you know...blah...blah... What does that prove other than you should have gotten good grades in history?

Judge a man by what he does, not what he says he can do. How hard does he train? How often? How long has he trained? Have you watched his form and technique? Is he out of shape or well conditioned? Have you seen him fight? How well does he treat others?

I heard Abbate was sick and I sent a card to him and my friend contacted him. I live out of state, so it's hard to get around to visiting him. I will sometime say hello to him again and maybe let him know some web bloggers were curious about him. While serving in the Vietnam War he was involved in a particularly hairy event that left him hospitalized. The articles I read about it and his re-telling of it indicate he had to engage in hand-to-hand combat. He said that while laying in his hospital bed he made a decision to teach to others the same skills that saved his life that day. He made good on his promise. He was not selfish-- he did not run a commercially appealing school that drew dozens of students to keep him in the money. He had only a few students willing to stick it out and he had a regular day job to pay the bills. Cobra Kai was not about money for him--- it was about sharing this life-saving gift. Some of us learned not just to fight, but to be confident and hard-working. Don't believe negative things about this man. He's a war hero and a giving teacher.

[larryc]

Dragon man- you said: I wasn't really looking to discuss Abbate really, I was just curious about Ganji's school as it appears to be some sort of kempo school masqueradeing as Kung Fu. I was wondering if anyone had any first hand experiance with them as I am not really planning to sign up for lessons to find out (I have enough Tai Tzu on my plate as it is).
********
Gangi is a really nice guy. Just go ask him if you can watch and tell him your concerns. He'll be cool if you decide his school is not for you. Gangi is not teaching traditional kempo, for sure, and I doubt he teaches traditional kung fu. He was and probably still is teaching a hybrid system that he chooses. I think he even says so on his website. When I was there there were no forms and much of it was point sparring. The self-defense drills seemed too padded and light for me.

If you want to learn a traditional system, and I think everyone should, I recommend you find a WuShu school in your area. It's all forms, but what acrobatic and explosive moves you will have! You can always supplement fighting and self-defense skills by joining a boxing, judo or mma club, or getting guys like Gangi or Z's to let you come in a fight. But if you do your forms with intensity and do strength training, that's all you'll need to defend yourself.

Hey- Master Killer, you asked
"He fractured the nose of a 12 or 13 year-old kid?"-- yeah - i was 13 and it is absurd. If I did not know the man as well as i do i would say to myself that his skill must be lousy if he cannot keep from accidentally smashing some kid's face. but he hit everyone that hard--deliberately and regularly---and other noses broke...and other injuries occurred. and he is not the only one who dished it out. we (the students) injured each other, too. i broke other people's noses and ribs on a few occasions. it was insane and unnecessary. but as a teenager it seems cool. BE CAREFUL WHO YOU SEND YOUR KIDS TO FOR MARTIAL ARTS LESSONS.

It's unnecessary to train like that. I think you can become a terrific fighter if you train full contact no pads- but strike only to the blue or red dot painted on the tkd chest protector. Don't worry, you'll still be able to hit a guy in the head if you get into a real fight.

[Mas Judt]

"So really, I was asking if the Chinese arts have something that you train on like you would a makiwara where the thing gives enough when you hit it so you can really sink a full strike, kick or block into it with your entire body (as opposed to standing above a table in a non-fighting stance and dropping hands on an iron palm bag)."

CMA does - bags that go on the wall. You are obviously very into your JMA, put your post shows a very limited understanding of this kind of training. No offense, but don't assume.

[Mas Judt]

"That raises a point of view I'd like to voice: I think too many people, especially Americans and certain Japanese organizations, place far too much importance on rank and titles. It has no purpose other than arrogance and ego- or a way to generate revenue if you run a martial arts school. Look, a true master of martial arts should have the discipline and humility to treat a 50 year black belt and a 5 day beginner, a CEO and a janitor, a priest and a prostitute, with the same amount of kindness, dignity and RESPECT. You should hide everyone's belts so everyone treats each other with the same amount of respect. All people are created equal and deserve respect. All of us have faults. And this calling yourself "Shihan" is a trend that only popped up recently and now it looks like every schmuck who runs a school in a strip mall calls himself Shihan. Please. The overabuse of the term has now made it mean nothing. And then comparing styles...whose is more authentic...whose lineage is pure...who can memorize and recite names...how many forms do you know...blah...blah... What does that prove other than you should have gotten good grades in history?"


Well put. Unfortunately this kind of thing is just the way it is, it seems...

[Royal Dragon]

Mas Judt,
yup, that is basically what i was refering to.

[larryc]

Hey Mas Judt- you're right- I have a limited understanding of CMA and any kind of bag training that is not western boxing or Okinawan makiwara. And I appreciate your careful word choice and your stating that you don't mean to offend. That's classy and by now I presume you and the other guys on this thread are cool like that. So thanks and remember I don't intend to offend any of you, either.

My only exposure to Chinese arts was for that short time that I explained, and as explained it was not typical or traditional. Only in recent years did I learn Taiji from a well-known Wushu master and I continue private lessons when time permits.

[Mas Judt]

yeah, you sound like a cool, dedicated guy - and that one comment could turn into 10 pages on a forum... but there is nothing wrong with not knowing something, despite what some might think...

[Royal Dragon]

Abbate never mentioned a "Vietnamese snake style" when I knew him. Someone in this thread posted earlier a history of Abbate's style from an old Cobra Kai manual Abbate used to give his students. I read it and do recall that is what Abbate told us when I was there. So re-read that-- that's the way I heard it, too. I really think his kung fu started with Tsai.

Reply]
No, Abbate was an accomplished martiala rtist long before he met Master Tsai. He was fromally trained in something called Tai Kit Kune. That is the Snake style I was refering to. I am not sure what it is, or where it comes from though. I was under the impression it was a Veitnamese branch of Chinese Kung Fu.