Traditional Shaolin WINNING NHB????

[Royal Dragon]

Hello,
I have been perusing some other boards of the MMA variety lately, and I have to tell you, the opinion of Kung Fu's abilitys is VERY VERY low. It seem's the consensus is that Kung Fu (regaurdless of style) is nothing more than some sort of martial based Yoga.

They can (and do) site instance after instace where kung Fu guys get slaughtered in NHB fights. They poke fun at the whole Eye poking/throat ripping thing and just about every thing else.

My question is this,
Can traditionally trainned Kung Fu fighters hold thier own against todays MMA fighters. If so, site examples of this occuring, I need examples that the MMA crowd would hve to admit to

Also, why do yu think we have NOT seen a much greater number of traditionally trained Kung Fu fighters even IN the ring let alone doing well?. Don't give me Budhist religious philosiphy as reasons, many of Kung Fu's systems were developed by ruthless undergroud societs and many family systems exist that surley would NOT fall under religious influance, right?

Lastly, when do you think, or what would it take before we DO see a larger number of traditional Kung Fu fighters doing well in the rings of NHB/MMA?

Royal Dragon

Ps, I'm posting here as apposed to the Kung Fu forum, because I am looking for serious disusion, not a bashing war from the MMA's or responses from trolls.

[Dark Knight]

The reason you do not see Kung Fu winning in NHB event is because it is a specific type of fighting. Also it is not NHB, there are rules that make it sutable for a peticular type of fighting. You might as well ask why a NHB fighter doesnt win in boxing. Its different rules and training.

Next, most of those people who trash other stlyes compared to NHB dont train for NHB. They are internet heros. The training required for NHB is tough, you have a small population that will train like that.

If you want to compare your style to another you must compare it on common ground. Lets look at street effectivness. Can your style be used in the street? Is it effective in the street? Is that what you are training for? Are you a sales person who makes a living on how you look, and cant afford to practice full contact for NHB but want training to defend yourself?......

Most style are effective and were developed on someones experience in fighting, will they all work in NHB, UFC... no, but will they work on the street?

[beiquan]

BJJ and MMA exist for the purpose of competition. If there were no UFC/Pride/ValeTudo/whatever, who would have heard of any of these things? People that practice these styles were introduced to them through the medium of competition, and consequently join up with these styles with the intent to compete.

Chinese martial arts are a system of personal cultivation, not to say that this is not present in BJJ or MMA but I would guess that the majority of people who study CMA do so for this reason. The name "gongfu" itself is indicative of this. In my experience, this type of competition is not the end to which most CMA practitioners train (IMO).

Just remember, people fight in these competitions, not styles. Hypothetically speaking, if I want to become a competitive fighter, OK, I've seen every UFC and Pride, and all I've ever seen win in these competitions are grappling/MMA which I think is the coolest thing, I'm not going to join a gongfu school where I have to sit in horse stance, I'm going to join a BJJ gym...it's kind of a self-perpetuating cycle.

Why do you have to make the MMA crowd "admit" to anything? I'm a gongfu practitioner, I'm happy with my style; after a few years of training, I still feel like I have a long way to go. I can't imagine that, years down the line, when I've been training for ten+ years, I'm going to feel that I need to prove anything to anybody else by competing in a competition. Here's a question: how would you convince a CMA practitioner that they should compete in these kind of events? What possible benefit or motivation would you offer this person as an incentive, if they are not already inclined to undertake this kind of training?

I have lots of respect for NHB/MMA, and I like to watch the competitions; I also like other competitive sports such as sumo or fencing but I don't feel any strong urge to prove myself in any of these venues...

Anyway good luck keeping the trolls out of this one, so far this Shaolin forum has had a pretty level-headed crowd, hope it stays that way...

[Royal Dragon]

OK,
I see some points, BUT Chinese martial arts HAVE competitive events!! So don't tell me no Chinese martial artist has a competitive drive!! There are examples of Kung Fu vs. Tai boxing, and I know LOT's of Kung Fu schools compete. Why have we not seen the elite level Kung Fu fighters do well in the MMA events? If they are there at all?

remember, when I compare NHB fighters, I'm NOT talking the average joe looking to survive a mugging, I'm talking the elite level practitioners of the arts. When are we going to see the elite level Kung Fu players do well in the MMA comps? If we are to compare apples to apples, then we should not bring street into this. And IF we did, i'm going to have to say, that the guy winning in the ring is going to be the SAME guy winning on the street, especially since there, he's NOT restricted to the rules of what ever tournament he's in. That goes for Kung Fu as well as MMA.

[Dark Knight]

"If we are to compare apples to apples, then we should not bring street into this. "

Then you cannot compare boxing to NHB, Melton Bowen, a heavy weight boxing champion, lost to Steve Jennum at UFC, does that mean that Boxing is no good because it lost to a NHB fighter.
What about MT, they have done poorly at NHB, Dan Severn abused a MT fighter. is MT crappy since it does not do well in NHB?

You might as well say that about anything except MMA because no one style wins in MMA. (The reason its called Mixed Martial Arts)

Its not the style that makes a difference, its the individual and the training.

A kung Fu guy could win in NHB but he would have to cross train for it, then is he still a kung fu guy?

[Radhnoti]

Another thing holding CMA's back from winning NHB competitions (in my opinion) is the fact that it's not as widespread as most the other MA's. Say you have 5000 guys with the basic long term goal to win a NHB competition. 500 attend a CMA school and the rest go elsewhere. Of those 500 how many will have the basic athleticism needed to compete? How many will stay injury free? How many will stay focused on their goal? Finally, how many will WIN and then go on to TEACH with a focus on NHB training? It makes sense to me that the styles that will produce NHB fighters are:
1. Popular styles...better chance of lucking into a "natural" athlete.
2. Styles that train SPECIFICALLY for NHB tournaments.
I totally agree with what the others have said as well. Especially beiquan's point about CMA's being a "system of personal cultivation" (boy that's well put! ;) ) and not just about bashing others heads in all the time.

-Radhnoti

[Royal Dragon]

Radhnoti,
If it's just a matter of popul;arity, how come tae kwon Do does'nt dominate the UFC? it's the most poular style in the world last I heard.

What does every one think of this statement,

"Knug Fu today is just watered down play, and WILL NEVER do well in NHB comps against the MMA's because it has become a dead art used mostly as a work out system, they just don't have the knowledge anymore"


Royal Dragon

[Royal Dragon]

Since we are on the subject of comparring apples to apples, should'nt we be comparing the rules of engagement, and NOT what discaplin the artist sudys?

I see it as a no rule vs rule situation. If both fighters are fighting in a total NO RULE situation, then we CAN compar the merits of a certain style vs another by pairing off 10 or more of each style and fighting them one on one. Then, take an average of wins and losses. This will give you a picture of a styles effectivenes. Now, if you take 100 fighters, and face them off, and ONE perticular style LOOSES 90% of the time one can conlude that the style with the loosing average is inferior to the one with the winning average.

Now, I know we can't fight no rules and expect there not to be casualties, but I think the modern NHB figthts are as close as you can get. AND if a large number of Kung Fu fighters consitantly loose, or fail to even make the cut and fight to begin with, then one must conclude that it's NOT a very effective method or group of methods. This is what is happening out there.

Now, I, as a Kung Fu (Tai Tzu Quan) practitioner, do NOT believe the MMA's have a superior system, BUT they do seem to win on awfull lot, and Kung Fu fighters seem to loose if they make it through the paliminarys at all. I would "like" to belive the best of us have NOT stepped up to the plate yet.

Now, since Kung Fu is suposed to be the superior arts, why don't they win in the MMA's? Are we all being delusional with our expectations of our arts? Or is there something else? Certianly all the elements for sucsess are there. Is it that no one has put it all together yet? Or is thier something else going on, am I wrong in my assesment of the abilitys my art can give me?. If so, why persue it? I want to know what is going on out there. I want to make sure I am training in the best system.

I would LOVE to see a purely traditionally trained fighter fight in the UFC, PRIDE or some thing equally as big, and dominate. NO, I would like to see LOT'S of Kung Fu guys do that.

If any one knows of tournaments where Shaolin Kung Fu guys DID do good and even won in NHB evenst against the current holy grail of fighting (MMA), I would love to know the details of when, where and who the fights took place and what were the exact results. Then, I want to know HOW they trainned and IF it was truly traditonal, or if he mixed in modern methods.
What style or styles did he study, How many hours does he train, what are his training sceduals different or alike the norm. Did he do lot's of forms, or free fighting. How about Chi Kung is that a factor in his sucsess?

My daughter is at the gym she is, because they win!! Consitantly, against the toughest competition in the country. Why do they win so much? because they have one of the BEST training systems in the country. Each Kung Fu style is actually a training system for fighting. I want mine to be one of the best. So, what makes a fighting system an elite fighting system. Can any style be an elite fighting system? Or are there certain styles that just suck, kind of like some gyms just suck because thier system sucks?


The readers want to know

RD

[Lightning Vortex Seiryu go]

the best of the real masters of gung-fu are above going around proving ability in compitions around the would esp. vs slouting neandrathal boneheads.
hyperspace_5@hotmail.com

happy fourth!!! :cool:

come on,

[Radhnoti]

Actually, I'd be interested in how many of the NHB competitors started out in TKD. No offense to TKD students, but a NHB competitor would PROBABLY have to move into MMA training to pick up the ground fighting, etc.

-Radhnoti

[Shaolindynasty]

One problem is that people are lumping all CMA together. China is a big country it has hundreds of styles of martial arts. If we lumped together JMA we would say because Shotokan hasn't done well then Judo Jujistu etc. wouldn't do well. To my knowledge only San soo and Wing Chun guys have competed in MMA tournaments they hardly represent all of CMA. Another factor is conditioning, those tournaments are for professional fighters. The guys that came from "kungfu" styles are at best not in shape amatuers. Alot of people are pushing Cung Le to compete in MMA although he has experience in BJJ and wrestling most people still consider him a sport kungfu competetor I personal don't really care to see him there. He fights great were he's at and is doing alot for his sport. This arguement is getting old and stupid though, seriously would you tell a boxer he sucks because he wouldn't do well in a MMA. No, because he is training for a different format. These are all different sports, even though they may have a similar theme they are still different. It's like expecting a basketball player to be good at soccer because both sports have round balls.

Witness the Dynasty!!!
New Site! www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net

[northstar]

I have never been able to see any NHB style competitions, but from reading this board I consistently find two statements reoccurring:
1. Traditionalists are constantly losing
2. The number of traditionalists in these competitions amount to a few persons (5 maybe)

Also, people who have claimed kung fu have not fought the kung fu way.

Seems to me that if these statements are correct, the issue is hypothetical so far.

However, I do believe that the bulk of people in TMA are not putting the time in necessary to become professional fighters. This is a shame since the essence of the old styles risk being lost, but on the other hand it's good not having masses of pro fighters roaming the streets...

[Sun_Tzu]

It is not unplausible for a Kungfu fighter to win a UFC or NHB. IMO none of the real KF masters have shown up yet. There are few true kungfu masters alive today. Particularly in the U.S., Masters have had to cater to the american public by cutting corners on conditioning and training, to the point that its current students are weaker in all aspects in relation to former generations. MMA is just a new term for an old concept. Kungfu by its very nature and throughout history is a MMA, which is nothing more than learning from other fighting systems.

I personally have done well against MMA and grapplers. In part because they underestimate me givent their past experience with KF people and second I see it as a lifestyle not a hobby or sport, and I train like I should (not for competition, but to win). I cannot speak for all true practioners, But I have many reasons not to compete in NHB or UFC. The biggest reason, Not enough money to fight as much as they do and Braggin rights just doesn't do it for me. As well I have far more important things to do.

Although I think it is possible for a KF practioner to win these events I will say this, they are severely handicaped. The rules to these
events do cater to wrestlers and grapplers and restrict arts such as KF styles to the point that punches and kicks are all they have left. This is in part due to the fact that KF was designed for survival not sport.

....The skilled commander

[Subitai]

Old thoughts and rehash that shouldn't need to be resaid...

...One problem w/ striking is there is NO way to Half A$$ it. I can't stop my punch half way and say "you might as well tap". Yes, a real punch not an adrenaline punch thrown w/ desperation.

Many of the tournament locks can be applied more slowly and thus you can afford to make em tap and look good. Fighting is ugly, no way around it.

*** Old timers know that ground work is nothing new**

Nothing that most old timers didn't know already. In the 70's my father was stressing me to bring your man down and take him out.

***Personal Protection = Equalizer***

People wonder why Kung Fu and similar arts can't do well in UFC. Simple, they did not evolve that way. In the Hey days you had to respect that the other guy might always be carrying protection, IE Dagger. In old times EVERYBODY or most carried at least a knife or Letter opener.
That is why most Martial arts ARE THE WAY THEY ARE. The evolved stances, protocol, ranges and used Distance to keep a safe zone and strike with impunity if possible.

I'll use my wrestling vs. someone who’s better at stand up than me. That's a no brainer...always have. But you give me a dagger and I fight the meanest 500lb grappler in the world because I'll gut him like a fish if he comes too close. 1st his extremities and tendons then the kill.

So what has been proven, some of the world is more enlightened by the last 5 or so years. So what, it doesn't change is this:

Two guys meet to fight, either spontaneous or by challenge. If they don't know anything about the other. There is some caution and testing. Not even MMA will immediately go to the ground.
Only a fool doesn't assume the other guy isn't packin' something. I always assume that. I know too many fools who carry Box Cutters. Do you have any idea the damage those razors can do?

Basically it's anybody’s day at any given time.

It's civilization, Pride in a style did not tell our ancestors to not use an Equilizer vs their foes just so they can say they beat a much bigger guy w/ their bare hands.

So i'm a Kung Fu guy too, but I’ve haven't had to make these Silly REALITY COMBAT ADJUSMENTS. I've been doing it naturally from the beginning.

BTW answer this, what do MMA/NHB guys look like when they have a weapon?

Answer: The same as everybody else.

For KF, being a martial "ARTIST" is not just about the fighting. It is culture, attitude, moral correctness and over all becoming a better person... But that is one reason why all of the NHB and MMA are beating standard Kung Fu practicioners. Because all they focus on is the PURE fighting aspect and not really anything else. Where as KF has so much more to learn.

In General and given this situation, it's only natural that the MMA will win...for sure in the ring.

"O"

[Dark Knight]

"Now, I know we can't fight no rules and expect there not to be casualties, but I think the modern NHB figthts are as close as you can get."

NHB events are set up for grapplers, even the people who do it know that. Go over to the UG forum and ask the same question.

You are not compareing apple to apples.

Also, as someone else pointed out its a small population that actually train at that level, you might as well say that after watching Tyson fight you can say that the average MA guy would not stand a chance. The majority of schools, in any style, do not train heavy contact or have people training to be in that kind of condition. Frank Shamrock said his greatest asset was his conditioning.

Stop trolling and try to learn.