Training for "The Street"

[Knifefighter]

You can't train for the street. you can just train as you are shown an best know how based on teh experience of those who came before and adapting with situations as they arise.

situational awareness training and methods that help ingrain the habits associated with situational awareness are much more valuable "street ready" training than any martial tactical practice.

But what about all the kung fu guys who say that is what kung fu is for?

[David Jamieson]

But what about all the kung fu guys who say that is what kung fu is for?

uh, I'm a "kungfu guy".

chinese martial arts, like any martial arts can be used for attack or defense.

but training is just training.

[Knifefighter]

uh, I'm a "kungfu guy".

chinese martial arts, like any martial arts can be used for attack or defense.

but training is just training.

OK, then... let's break it down into multiple/weapons vs. unarmed and one person.

Same topic as above, but we can replace street with "just training" if that makes you happier.

Same questions regarding insights apply.

[David Jamieson]

lemme break it down a little.

a soldier enters the armed forces and gets his 13 weeks of boot camp.
thios is hard training, mostly conditioning, heaps of cardio vascular stuff and strength building through gruelling routines.

once that's been gotten through, they get a station.

at the station, depending on their units level of participation in whatever, they continue some forms of training and where it lacks, there is provisions made for those soldiers that do wish to continue training conditioning stuff and often there ar clubs on base where soldiers can learn any number of various types of self defense and attack methods and tactics.

some soldiers can specialize and do rigorous martial training such as rangers, seals and other special ops type teams.

a guy can go through all of this for years before he steps out of a c130 and gets shot in the head before he gets his gear out of stow.

and that's my point about training.

Train because you want to train. You don't need any other reasons.

[Knifefighter]

a guy can go through all of this for years before he steps out of a c130 and gets shot in the head before he gets his gear out of stow.
and that's my point about training.

lTrain because you want to train. You don't need any other reasons.

I guess, according to your "point", the military doesn't need to train its personnel.. only those guys who want to train.

But that is another thread. This one is to discuss insights learned from training with multiple opponents and/or weapons in a realistic manner.

[David Jamieson]

I guess, according to your "point", the military doesn't need to train its personnel.. only those guys who want to train.

But that is another thread. This one is to discuss insights learned from training with multiple opponents and/or weapons in a realistic manner.

no, that's not it at all.

the military trains their personnel to be able to keep up with the unit, carry what they have to carry, shoot when they need to shoot and attack and defend themselves and their positions, but, all the training in the world is only that. "training".

IE: you cannot prove that one thing is better than another for training for the street because a black belt in this or that can be bested by a drunken piky with a 2x4 when the stars are right.

so don't try to train for something that may never happen, it's a watse of time and effort.

training for me is to have purpose and intention in physical ability to defend myself or someone else if need be. also, the health benefits are great. but i don't portend to think that I am invulnerable from anything. And training is not about making yourself a thicker wall, it's about building a better city altogether.

[desertkruzr]

To build on David Jamieson's point,

I don't think there is anything in either MMA training or CMA training (or ANY training, really) that can fully adequetely train anyone for a real life, violent street encounter. The only possible exception to that would be training your killer instinct so you can switch it on in a split second the moment that you need it.

I feel that at least 90% of surviving a truly violent street encounter is being able to switch this on at will. Bear in mind here, I'm not talking about some drunk a$$hole that is giving you grief on your way home. I'm talking about something like 2 or 3 charged up desperate crackheads that not only really NEED your money, they also hate you just for being in their neighborhood. In a split second, you need to be able to switch that on.

All technique and style variations, while I do feel some are better for the street than others, are very much secondary to being able to do this. If you can't turn on your killer instinct, and fear gets in, you're dead.

There are ways to consciously train yourself to be able to do this. For example, in the some of the higher level Taoist animal styles, they teach meditation techniques that actually teach the practitioner how to drop down into their lower animal brain at will.

This is the deeper meaning to animal styles, for it goes way beyond imitating how an animal fights with various hand techniques, and other physical extentions. And it also goes much deeper than just understanding and using the different fighting strategies that various animals use. At this level, one literally learns how to step into a different part of their brain at will, and temporarily BECOME an animal in consciousness. Some of the deeper level Indonesian Silat styles teach this as well, and I suspect that some of the African styles of fighting do also.

When one is in this animal state, they can be truly deadly in combat. One is calm and relaxed, yet totally charged, and ready to inflict serious harm and injury.

However, there are some that say that practicing this is very dangerous. The person practicing this can appear as if possesed. But if one can learn to step into and out of this state at will, and completey control when to step into it, and when to step out of it, many insist that it is absolutely the best thing to know how to do to survive a truly violent encounter.

Again though, there are higher level Taoists that feel that this practice should still be avoided, as they feel that even temporarily stepping into this animal level of consciousness is detrimental to one's spiritual growth and well being.

These individuals advocate cultivating a much higher state of consciousness. They advocate one in which the practitioner, through meditation, develops such a strong connection with the heaven chi (as opposed to earth or ground chi) that they are constantly in such a relaxed state of heightened awareness that should a violent encounter suddenly occur, it won't throw them off guard, and they'lll be able to remain in that heightened clear and balanced state, and deal with the attack from that vantage point. It's been said that from that vantage point, the attack seems to happen in slow motion, and one's responses to the attack flow almost effortlessly, yet with great precision and power, since one's chi flow is also greatly increased when one is in this state.

Personally, I believe that this second thing is possible, but I feel that it's no small trick. To be able to stay that centered and elevated in consciousness in the midst of violence certainly takes a lot of mental training. But there are those that insist that this is the best way to train oneself to deal with a real life, violent encounter.

[MasterKiller]

I guess, according to your "point", the military doesn't need to train its personnel.. only those guys who want to train..

I have some experience with this. The ARMY combatives program Level 1 is mandatory for all units. This is a basic class in which you learn to punch, kick, clinch, and some beginner BJJ. I believe the Gracies even had a hand in writing the field manual. Each drill is graded Pass or Fail. You must pass each drill to finish the course. One of the more famous ones is called "Punch Drill" where instructors put on 16oz boxing gloves and basically pummell soldiers who must successfully clinch up w/o being allowed to strike.

The class is 2 weeks, after which troops are supposed to "get together" and practice sometime, to keep up their skills.

The ARMY doesn't spend a lot of time on H-2-H because they figure all you have to do is contain the enemy long enough for your buddy to run up and shoot him in the head.

Many of the Level I instructors are no better than a BJJ white belt with a few months of training, because, afterall, once you get through Level I you are officially a Level I instructor.

Level II has more advanced groundwork, but is optional. Level II graduates are supposed to go back to their units and train others. I believe it is also a 2 week course.

Level III and above is instructor training, and only a select few get to do it. These guys get 4 solid weeks of serious training in Kali stick fighting, boxing, MT, and BJJ from high-level ARMY and civilian instructors.

Now, the ARMY also holds an open tournament once a year. 2 rounds of BJJ rules grappling. Winners advance to 2 rounds of MMA fights. The winners from the individual bases compete at Ft. Benning in the All Base tournament, which is an MMA format. They have videos of this year's fights posted on the SoldierGround.

[Ray Pina]

The street is just ****ed up.... you never know what's going to happen, when it's going to happen or how it's going to happen.

What you can do as a martial artists is get yourself as tough as possible. Hone your shielding skills against heavy striking and kicking. Make your own striking and kicking devestating. Keep yourself in tip-top shape so you can go lose-your-mind-ape-$hit-hard for 3 minutes and then run 8 blocks at full speed... ignoring sprains, cuts, bruises..... in other words, being man enough, skilled and aware enough, to get done what needs to get done.

One tool that has been extremely useful for me is fighting with as many people, from as many styles and under as many rule sets as possible... I've learned from each.

Why doesn't TKD let you capture their kick?

I believe in the old days it was assumed if they kick you they're breaking something... so you need timing to get in and out unkicked. Today, I believe it's because if yo capture their kick they're **** out of luck. So capturing or attacking a kick is good. But can you? Can you capture the Thai Kick?

Why doesn't MMA let you elbow the back of the neck or knee the head after stuffing a shoot? Because you can really hurt someone coming down on someone's spine with the same force you use to break bricks. So that's good to know. But at the same time, the skill needed to stuff the shoot, sprawl out, gain side control and then the back.... that's a great skill. I'd play under those rules anytime. It's fun. Teaches sensativity.

You can't "train for the street." How do you train for running away from a knife attack and avoiding traffic, slippery ground all while avoiding police detection... hiding anything that could incriminate you along the way?

I just train to be sharper of body and mind, more flexable in my technique and mind... more open to see and use the things around me at the time. The other day I had my taller student in a guillotine, backed him into the corner where my "sifu" chair is, stepped up onto it so I could get the leverage to choke him out. Wasn't conscious. I just saw the chair and found myself there standing on it with him tapping. We all laughed and learned from that.

[PangQuan]

a couple things i have learned regarding street saftey/defense.

1) Carry a weapon, if at all possible. if you shun firearms, or are un capable of carrying one, get a knife.

keep your weapon in a place that is easy to draw and get into a combat ready position.

above all else, familiarize yourself with your weapon you choose to be your lifeline.

ie: knife, when your at home, play with it, constantly. practice drawing from your hold location, such as a specific pocket.

if you cannot, with confidence, draw your weapon in an instant and have it ready. its pointless to even carry.

2) Understand behavior patterns. Be able to utilize a potentially dangerous situation. Be able to spot aggressors and "leaders of the pack". If running is not an option, being able to pick the leader of a group out and attack him first is going to be your best option, so long as the "leader" is in as vulnerable a position to be attacked as the rest of the group. Dont go out of your way to assault the leader first if you cannot do so in the safest manner possible.

3) Above all else, retreat is the best option when facing single or multiple opponents. Often, multiple opponents, this will require actually running. Often against a single assailant (unless they have premeditated reason for attacking) you can talk your way out.

4) Above style and technique, on the street, understanding how to utilize the environment to your advantage is a must. IE: walls, obsticles, possible retreat routes...etc.

The methodology for using the terrain in large scale warfar remains the same in personal combat. Scaled. Stay away from deaths ground, such as pinning yourself into a location so as to be cut off from an escape route, or being surrounded.

5) If and when you become overwhelmed and have no way out. GO DOWN FIGHTING! take as many with you as you can.

against multiple attackers, if you cannot escape, or do not have superiority of weapons, chances are your going to get beaten.

as always, weapons are an essential aspect of street safety. This has always been the case in any culture in any time period, regardless.

weapons are and will always be a factor in any "street" encounter.

dont be up sh!t creek without your paddle. if you train for reality in the street, then you must understand the reality of weapon utilization.

this is just a very very small aspect of street safety i have realized in my personal studies.

as always, my opinion only.

[dougadam]

I go to the mission and ask if the tuff guys would like to throw punches at me.

[Mas Judt]

If I was asked advice, I'd tell people to understand the psycology of misdirection. This has worked much better for me over the years at it helps prevent the need for a violent response, or keeps the opponent confused, distracted or off-gaurd - allowing you to take the element of surprise in a violent encounter.

[Raised by Swans]

For our beginning students, we work on defending against one attacker either open handed or with a knife/club. For them, we also spend several weeks out of the year working in "every day" clothes and outside of the kwoon environment. Inside the kwoon, we'll also set up people and pads as inanimate objects that they have to spar around.

Our philosophy is that beginners should spend most of their time learning how to move, build root, posture and build a basic understanding of body mechanics...building a strong foundation.

Students approaching beginning black and beyond work more advanced tactics. Many drills we use are similar to those already listed in the forum. When we practice against armed opponents (knives, clubes, etc.) we also use rubber and wooden weapons, but we coat them in chalk, so if we get hit, we can see where and how. From there, we can assess how to adjust.

Another difference for advanced students is that when we do gun techniques, that don't involve headshots, we use low powered airsoft guns. Again, it allows us to understand mistakes and adjust.

As with beginning students, advanced students will practice in outside settings, but the environments are more varied and loaded with more variables. Also unlike the beginning students, the conflict does not stop if it goes to the ground, regardless of the surface (grass, rock, concrete, asphalt). Hence, the possibility of injury is greater, but my Sifu's philosophy is that we've spent years training, we should have something to show for it.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Most people would agree that to get the most out of your training, you must spar."


***ABSOLUTELY.

"For those who train for "the street”, how often do you spar with and against weapons?"


***ABOUT once a month for each.

"Multiple opponents?"

***SAME thing.

"Multiple opponents with weapons?"

***NEVER....Just run like hell.


"What kinds of weapons do you spar with and against?"

***AGAINST knives, sticks, baseball bats. I use 2 tonfa (one each hand) adapted to Traditional Wing Chun Butterfly swords....sticks (if fairly long) adapted to TWC Dragon Pole...and one knife or stick adapted to Butterfly Swords.

"What kinds of mixes do you use with mutliples? 2 on1? 3 on 1? 2 on 3? 3 on 5?

***Two on one...and three on one.

What kinds of weapons do you throw into the mix?

***NONE...if you're outnumbered and they have one or more weapons....run like hell.

"For those that do spar, how do you keep the injuries down?"

***LOTS of protective equipment - a progrssive approach to power and speed...and a quick stoppage if/when heavy bows are landed.

"How do you make it realistic?"

***THIN fingerless gloves - kicks to everywhere except the groin - with sneakers on (but lightweight Converse Allstars)...and very few rules expect be ready to stop on a dime if something heavy gets landed.

"What are the things you have learned from your sparring experiences?"

***WHAT works and what's fluff....more or less.

"How does the environment affect your ability to fight multiple and/or weapons wielding opponents?"

***WHERE you are affects one's abilities enormously.

"Do your specific techniques change when facing multiple opponents and/or weapons?"

***AGAINST multiple opponents and/or weapons it's all about trying to position myself such that I'm never in the middle - and it's about trying to take someone out very quickly - and then hopefully to use that position as an escape hatch get out of there...against a weapon it's all about techinqies meant to take it away from him.

"Do your tactics change?

***SEE above.

"Does the mix of how important technique vs. strategy is change?"

***YES...it's all about strategy....positioning yourself so as to be able to escape is first and foremost.

"What happens when it is you, rather than your opponent, who has the advantage either in terms of weapons or numbers?"

***THEN God help him if I happen to be very angry.

"How do bladed vs. blunt edged vs. projectile vs. firearms weapons change the tactics and techniques?"

***DEPENDS on exactly what I have in my hand....if I have a short knife and he has a baseball bat - it's time for me to leave. Against a firearm....LOL.

[ingchao]

How Many times has Knifefighter brought up this same question????

We know he is a professional troll. But now I will humor him somewhat..

1)KF: How Many times have you faced a naked blade in a real situation? (have you been attacked , Raped or otherwise?)
Have you faced enough "real life" to say you know what to do......sometimes????

2) The best way to become a real fighter is to walk into a bar and start SH!te w/the toughest looking guy there and when he kicks your butt, then you ask him for lessons. this is the only way you can learn to defend yourself.
What is your response to this KF?

Whatever all these punks say about Sigung Chan Tai San and his crew, they brought CTS's most IMPORTANT lesson to this forum and it was "YOU learn more from your losses than your victories" (paraphrase)

Let's settle this w/o BS threats and w/real HONEST facts.