The myth of the standing arm break...

[MasterKiller]

Whoops, I forgot that the Gracies have all the answers to street violence. My bad. In a street situation the last place I want to be is tied up with some frightened or pizzed off thug, standing or on the ground..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WtGyZdZ6zE

[Ultimatewingchun]

"Kind of a spinoff from another thread... How many people have learned techniques that are supposed to break someone's arm, either while standing or on the way to the ground.

The fact is, you will almost never be able to purposely break someone's arm in this manner if they are even somewhat skilled and/or strong and providing resistance. While these types of breaks do occasionally occur, they are almost always accidental.

Any breaks that one can perform 'on purpose' will be those that one can do while controlling the opponent on the ground, rather than when standing or throwing." (Knifefighter/Dale Franks)


***ABOUT 95% TRUE. But I can tell you about one particular catch wrestling move that can break an elbow/arm/shoulder because I personally did it to someone once while rolling (ie.- ripped up his shoulder). Didn't quite appreciate how dangerous the move can be at that time...and have since handled it with extreme care whenever it comes up.

Remember the double wristlock (DWL) that Sakuraba pulled off on Renzo Gracie - and broke his elbow? (Some people refer to it as the kimura, as you know).

It started from a standing position and ended up as a finish on the ground.

The move I'm talking about is very similar: starts from a standing position while you are off to his side a little bit and almost facing him....you then turn completely into him and literally throw him over your hip (the one that corresponds to your arm that's directly on his wrist/hand area - and NOT the hip that corresponds to your arm that's snaked around his arm)...and you throw him while also cranking the double wristlock up and over the top.

Or you can do this by literally spinning/falling down in front of him and let him fly over your bent knees which are now in the air (he completely somersaults)...while you crank the lock.

You'll wind up in cross chest position (side control) - and his arm/shoulder could be kaput by the time you even land on top of him.

[rogue]

It's nice to have that as option, so you can choose that if you need to.

I fully agree with you. The more usable options the better.

Much better than only having the standup option with no grappling or groundfighting ability.

I fully agree with you. The more usable options the better.

Of course, some people like to believe that their standup skills will ensure that they never be in a grappling or groundfighting situation... which is kind of ironic considering that attempting standing arm breaks is exactly where that leads to.

While I agree with the first part the standing arm bar technique does not have any ill mental effects on the user. Now if you want to say that trying to use a technique at the wrong time and to continue to try to get said technique to work after failing instead of moving on is stupid, then I agree.

Nobody's saying they could beat Tito or Chuck.

However, why not train as if you are going to go against one of them?
Why train for the lowest common denominator?

Why spend time training to go against people I stand very little chance of meeting much less fighting? I might as well train to fight against ninjas and Bruce Lee as well. While I get what you are saying, I'm on a very limited training schedule and just don't have the time or to be honest the interest in spending that much time shooting for those goals.
What are we considering is the lowest common denominator and what makes you think that's who I train with?

[Knifefighter]

ABOUT 95% TRUE.[/B] But I can tell you about one particular catch wrestling move that can break an elbow/arm/shoulder because I personally did it to someone once while rolling (ie.- ripped up his shoulder). Didn't quite appreciate how dangerous the move can be at that time...and have since handled it with extreme care whenever it comes up.

Remember the double wristlock (DWL) that Sakuraba pulled off on Renzo Gracie - and broke his elbow? (Some people refer to it as the kimura, as you know).

It started from a standing position and ended up as a finish on the ground.

This is a common takedown and is exactly in agreement with what I am talking about.

You have to finish it on the ground.

[Knifefighter]

While I get what you are saying, I'm on a very limited training schedule and just don't have the time or to be honest the interest in spending that much time shooting for those goals.

Seems like you would want to spend your limited training time working the highest percentage techniques.

[Knifefighter]

Knowledge of arm manipulations reveals why it is so hard to make standing arm breaks work.

Consistent and successful joint breaks/hyperextensions require four things:
- Control at the opponent’s wrist with both of your hands.
- Control of the opponent’s body.
- Isolation of the arm.
- A method to get to a position to apply the above three principles.

Standing arm manipulations lack one or more of these.

[WinterPalm]

Knowledge of arm manipulations reveals why it is so hard to make standing arm breaks work.

Consistent and successful joint breaks/hyperextensions require four things:
- Control at the opponent’s wrist with both of your hands.
- Control of the opponent’s body.
- Isolation of the arm.
- A method to get to a position to apply the above three principles.

Standing arm manipulations lack one or more of these.

In training and in theory I would agree with this in terms of demonstration and execution in a training environment. You must have these in order to maximize an arm hold done to the point of breaking. However, unlike in training, an actual execution does not have to involve all of these. One needs to have control of an extended arm just enough to drive a very hard strike into the elbow to create a break. I"m not saying this is easy or that it can be pulled off 100% of the time, but you can't neglect explosive application with no intent but to seriously hurt.
I'm familiar with some literature on Jiu-Jitsu that stresses you quickly get into position but then apply the pressure slowly so as to not hurt your opponent. That is what we do in Kung Fu. To break an arm or shoulder, you have to really crank it and blast into it full force. By applying gradual pressure you will need the above requirements, but to just give er, that can mean not having to have your list in place.

[rogue]

Seems like you would want to spend your limited training time working the highest percentage techniques.

Highest percentage in what regard, just beating the snot out of the other guy? Outside of training the only thing that has come within 100 miles of a fight for me this past year was two minor incidents with drunks at neighborhood parties. Both were handled very discretely with what you would call low percentage techniques, with no one hurt and nobody embarrassed except for being a dolt while drunk. Putting a Kimura or a choke on somebody or taking them to the ground would really have started situations that would be bad for everyone. So with my limited time I choose to train at least half my time for the highest percentage of what I will face given where I live and my lifestyle, which in itself takes care of most things. The more extreme things that can happen get trained also but I'm realistic about my chances of what I'll run into and appropriate response.

Consistent and successful joint breaks/hyperextensions require four things:
- Control at the opponent’s wrist with both of your hands.
- Control of the opponent’s body.
- Isolation of the arm.
- A method to get to a position to apply the above three principles.

Can I ask what you are using for a reference? I've seen people hyper extend their elbows as a result of vigorous air punching, and I've been of the giving and receiving end of techniques that have resulted in hyper extended elbows with only one of the 3 items on your list.

[SifuAbel]

The UFC people figured out years ago that this stuff doesn't work. Generally, they stick with stuff that works. People who try to use these types of techniques in a live venue quickly learn that they really can't be made to work in a purposeful manner.


Quite often at the Dog Brothers gatherings, where fighters come from a variety of FMA and IMA backgrounds. FMA and IMA both include many standing breaks, hyperextensions and dislocations. However, as these fighters quickly find out, these things don't really work when you try to do them for real.

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, if no video ,then its BS. Assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume assume.

[SifuAbel]

Knowledge of arm manipulations reveals why it is so hard to make standing arm breaks work.

Consistent and successful joint breaks/hyperextensions require four things:
- Control at the opponent’s wrist with both of your hands.
- Control of the opponent’s body.
- Isolation of the arm.
- A method to get to a position to apply the above three principles.

Standing arm manipulations lack one or more of these.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaa

Nope. Try again. Not even close.

[lunghushan]

You know, I've had it with this thread and all of you in particular.

KF if I ever get down to SC I'll show you a couple of standing arm breaks since you're so adamant about it.

Sure if you're fighting somebody with a lot of training, it's hard, but stop dissing CMA.

You might want to get out more.

[rogue]

Wow, those last two posts were very insightful and really helped further the conversation.

So for those of us the believe that standing arm breaks/hyper extensions work, when is the best time to use one?

[rogue]

Knowledge of arm manipulations reveals why it is so hard to make standing arm breaks work.

Consistent and successful joint breaks/hyperextensions require four things:
A Control at the opponent’s wrist with both of your hands.
B Control of the opponent’s body.
C Isolation of the arm.
D A method to get to a position to apply the above three principles.

Standing arm manipulations lack one or more of these.

In a way the above list is half right (A can be dropped IMO), you generally do need items B & C in some form or other. How much control of the opponent's body is needed can be argued, but I'm guessing that KF is referring to a trained, strong opponent who is as aware of your skills and what you are going to try to do. So his list is accurate for how he is thinking his fight will happen. Now if that's the only kind of encounters that will be faced then a standing elbow dislocation will probably not work. Of course those are not the only kind of encounters that can happen so...

[truewrestler]

Not sure if these were posted yet. This is one of the best grapplers in MMA Shinya Aoki who has pulled off a standing armlock in MMA.

Fight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_718dOW09k

Instruction for this standing armlock:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uQGIbm1hiw

[Knifefighter]

You know, I've had it with this thread and all of you in particular.

KF if I ever get down to SC I'll show you a couple of standing arm breaks since you're so adamant about it.

Sure if you're fighting somebody with a lot of training, it's hard, but stop dissing CMA.

You might want to get out more.

Tell you what... if you can pull off a standing arm lock on me, I'll pay your plane fare.