The myth of the standing arm break...

[Knifefighter]

Kind of a spinoff from another thread... How many people have learned techniques that are supposed to break someone's arm, either while standing or on the way to the ground.

The fact is, you will almost never be able to purposely break someone's arm in this manner if they are even somewhat skilled and/or strong and providing resistance. While these types of breaks do occasionally occur, they are almost always accidental.

Any breaks that one can perform "on purpose" will be those that one can do while controlling the opponent on the ground, rather than when standing or throwing.

[PangQuan]

i think, depending on the situation, the opportunity may present itself.

against a trained fighter? no. not very likely.

some drunk fool, who has his hands on you. there is a possiblity.

not all battles will be against a strong and skilled adversary.

though i agree that trying to impliment these types of techniques in an even match is very risky and foolish, that is not to say i believe all matches to be even.

my philosophy:

when presented with possible options for engagement and reaction, the most simple option, is more often the correct choice to utilize, as its chances for success increase dramatically compared to very detailed, advnaced and involved techniques.

so with that being said, even if i felt positive i could break some fools arm, i would not try it.

[Mas Judt]

Not a myth. I've done it.

However, a really skilled stand-up grappler is very unlikely to get caught in it, or for it to be effective as a break.

Perhaps you just aren't very good at it or don't understand how to make it work.

[Knifefighter]

Perhaps you just aren't very good at it or don't understand how to make it work.

.......LOL!!!!!

[Mas Judt]

I do agree that the simpler the usage, the more likely you will suceed. Although there are a great many skills that are simple. Often to me when people talk 'complex' they are really referring to 'unrealistic scenario'.

It's the legacy of the waiting lunge punch from JMA and KMA. The reality of the energy of a fight, the lines of extensin and reaction are much more important to understand than trying to stop a 'dead' arm.

There are things I consider simple that others view as complex, but it is a matter of familiarity. It goes the other way too. I see good fighters who do stuff I consider complex, but to them it is simple.

But then there are the fantasy pajama pants crowd. Which I think you are rferring to.

As a side note, I've noticed Muay Thai guys are the easiest to arm bar (due to thier emphasis in training - and of course, not ALL of them) and wrestlers and (good) tai chi guys are virtually impossile to establish a standing arm bar/break.

[Mas Judt]

I know KF, it's always humerous to tout ones shortcomings, but you really should give yourself more credit...

[Golden Arms]

How dare you imply that Knife isnt skilled in something..I was under the impression he knows and can prove wrong personally even material from martial arts that he has never practiced...Hell I am pretty sure he can prove the entire system of Baguazhang doesnt work just by watching a clip of it on youtube. You are dealing with an expert here.

[Ray Pina]

I have broken ribs on two seperate opponants, one was a TKD blackbelt instructor with his own school in NY, the other a 275lbs with over 15 years of Kali, Wing Chun and JKD training. Oh, and most recently the nose of a BJJ purple belt.

I have never broken an arm on an opponant and God knows I have tried. The arm is very easy to pull back into a strong and secure structure, it can also be saved by using the very mobile waist to change position/relationship.

Very uncool and unnecessary to attack someone who: a) posted something true, practical to know and relevant and b) who has more practical experience than most here.


The best way to get a break while standing is to scoop the others arm to where their elbow rests inside your elbow and swing like an uppercut and drive off the foot. Someone posted an awesome video of this being pulled off in Japan I think during an MMA event.

[PangQuan]

do you have a link to that video by chance ray?

that would be interesting to see

[matt]

I have broken ribs on two seperate opponants, one was a TKD blackbelt instructor with his own school in NY, the other a 275lbs with over 15 years of Kali, Wing Chun and JKD training. Oh, and most recently the nose of a BJJ purple belt.

ribs are pretty easy to break and training dont make you a good fighter just more knoledgeable about things you could do just like a degree in college doesnt make you an athority

I have never broken an arm on an opponant and God knows I have tried. The arm is very easy to pull back into a strong and secure structure, it can also be saved by using the very mobile waist to change position/relationship.

thats what chin na is for you control not let them

Very uncool and unnecessary to attack someone who: a) posted something true, practical to know and relevant and b) who has more practical experience than most here.

as always im a newbe but this post is inaccurate


The best way to get a break while standing is to scoop the others arm to where their elbow rests inside your elbow and swing like an uppercut and drive off the foot.

this is horrible and not correct! the best way to attack joints is to make a point in the middle of the joint and draw and x moving at forty five degree angles to the joint. On the elbow that would mean about 2-3 inches above or below the joint. Than you would strike into the joint this causes the bones to break. If you go elbow to elbow you might get a dislocation but never a break. You can however break the bone out of the flesh from a sever dislocation witch is not a real break but same result. If you apply the method of moving into the joint from the 45 degree angle im sure you might have more success


Someone posted an awesome video of this being pulled off in Japan I think during an MMA event.

have a nice day and keep working thats all we can do !!!

[WinterPalm]

Never say never...just because you don't train it or don't see it...doesn't mean it won't work. If you apply a proper hold and are sensitive and can feel where the person is going in their resistance, then I think you can restrain someone in a standing position and if you so desire, break their arm from that position. Several things come up though: putting them to the ground is a much better place to control them. When one resists it is easier to apply a hold than if they are loose and flow with the movement. In a full out fightin situation, striking is much preferable from my perspective. IN a sudden self-defense situation, using restraints can be a good option and surprise followed by breaking limbs can be implemented...a shoulder break, an elbow break, etc.

That said, why do you want to break someone's arm? Is it not enough to restrain them? I suppose the situation would dictate the course of action but I think it is possible to break someone's limbs standing up.

[lkfmdc]

you will almost never be able to purposely break someone's arm in this manner if they are even somewhat skilled and/or strong and providing resistance

glad at least you used a modifier


http://video.google.com/googleplayer...98734503&hl=en

By the way, Aoki has sick takedowns and still jumps guard and jumps arm bar

[Chief Fox]

My old sifu broke one of his students arms. I saw it. It was one of the bones of the forearm. Sifu was demonstrating a hammer fist technique. The student raised his arm to block and got his arm broken. It wasn't severe but you could tell that something was wrong with his arm the way he instantly protected it. The next class, there he is with a cast on his arm.

Would you guys say there is a difference between a bone break and a joint dislocation? That video was very impressive but I would say that all of his techniques were joint dislocations and not bone breaks.

Flying armbar is cool!

[PangQuan]

My old sifu broke one of his students arms. I saw it. It was one of the bones of the forearm. Sifu was demonstrating a hammer fist technique. The student raised his arm to block and got his arm broken. It wasn't severe but you could tell that something was wrong with his arm the way he instantly protected it. The next class, there he is with a cast on his arm.

Would you guys say there is a difference between a bone break and a joint dislocation? That video was very impressive but I would say that all of his techniques were joint dislocations and not bone breaks.

Flying armbar is cool!

definately dislocate. but still. if you can get the leverage to dislocate a pro fighters arm in a match...a break isnt far off.

[Ben Gash]

Dislocating an elbow takes much more force than breaking a radius, and has a MUCH more catastrophic and immediate effect.
As for impossible? Breaking/dislocating the arm is relatively easy, it's getting into a postion that is difficult. This requires a fairly high level of sensitivity training, and again, if your opponent has an equally high level it will be very difficult, but if your opponent has a skill level very close to yours ANYTHING will be difficult.
As I always say, if he's better than you then he's going to beat you.