Help With Hsing-Yi Crossing fist

[Three Harmonies]

STMA
As per most of our conversations you give me yet another perspective to look at Xing Yi from. Thank you. Excellent explanation. Do you have any examples of the old songs?
Thanks,
Jake

[stma]

They are coming in your translation, which is getting close to being finished.

[brucereiter]

The Songs Of The Five Elements

The Song Of Pi Ch’uan
From the mouth, come the two fists closely held.
Up to the eyebrow, drills the forefist.
Close behind the forefist, follows the hind fist.
Together with the crossing arms, the heart unites. Chi falls to Tan Tien as body moves, hind
foot forward as the arms separate.
In a hemisphere the Tiger's mouth opens while all fingers apart.
Forehand pushes to between eyebrow and heart.
Under the armpit, the hind hand stays.
Hand, nose, and foot form the three point set.
So as Pi Chuan tsuans upward, to the eyebrow, turned up the little finger.
Together sink the feet and hands, upthrust the tongue.
Advancing, changing styles, hind palm sinks downward.

The Song Of Peng Ch’uan
Peng Chuan starts with three points set.
"Hu Yen" upward high as heart.
Hind Hand "Yang Fist" under armpit stays, fore foot forward, hind foot next.
Shape like "T", the two feet are firm, body turns while looking straight.
Upstraight standing when foot lift, lifted foot with toes pointing side wise.
Hands and feet come down swiftly at same pace, fore foot crossed then hind one follows
naturally.
Peng Chuan still have tongue at palate.
Fore Arms elbow curved to upthrust.
Punch to the armpits when advancing.
Be quick and firm, the hind foot follows.

The Song Of Tsuan Ch’uan
Fore Hand "Yin Palm" presses down.
Hind Hand "Yang Fist" upward tsuans.
Up to the eyebrows the fists tsuan, elbows embrace heart while hind foot moves.
Stare at fore fist, four limbs stop.
Tsuan Chuan moves and styles changed.
Fore foot steps first, hind foot next, hind hand "Yin Palm" down the elbows kept.
Step by step the three points set.
Fore Hand "Yang Fist" hit the nose.
Little finger upward turned, heart by elbows protected.
Tsuan Chuan punches nose when advancing.
Fore Palm downward pressed with wrist, then upward turned as steps forward.



The Song Of Pao Ch’uan
Elbows tightly embracing the body as foot lifted.
Fists in Yang fist must be tight.
Forehand be cross hindhand.
Form the "T" shape.
Fists first stay beside the navel. "Chi falls to Tan Tien as style changes, keep the three point
set in place."
Fist outward, high as heart, forefist "Hu Yen" upward while hindfist tsuans up to eyebrows
with "Hu Yen" downwards and elbows too.
Pao Chuan must have foot lifted up.
Forefist tsuans up as foot drops.
"Crossing steps" as fist and foot sink together.
Thus follows the hind foot on.

The Song of Heng Ch’uan
Forehand "Yang Fist", hind fist "Yin", hind hand just below the elbow keeps.
Foot lifts up as fists move, body be firm and "Chi" is settled.
Tongue curls up and air exhales, feet close as scissors when style changes.
Half turn the body while feet/hands move, hind hand twists up and thrusts out.
Steps down, fists "Yang" and three points set, nose and feet are specially linked.
Heng Chuan always keep hind fist "Yin".
Forehand "Yang Fist", elbows protect heart.
Left and right arms thrust out as bows. Feet/Hand sink together with tongue curled.

[brucereiter]

The Song of Heng Quan
Heng Quan is like a ball. Its nature is earth.
It creates Pi. It destroys Zuan. It is closed and curved.
Hook the arm making a slight triangle.
It governs the heart, stomach, lungs, spleens and kidneys.

A Discourse on Heng Quan.
Using the principles of mutual creating, earth can create metal. Therefore, Heng Quan can
create Pi Quan. Using the principies of mutual destroying, earth can destroy water.
Therefore, Heng Quan can destroy Zuan Quan. In speaking of the fíve elements as they
correspond to the internal organs, the spleen corresponds to earth. In speaking of the fíve
elements as they correspond to the external organs, then everything is connected to the
spleen. These are the principles of creating and destroying in the fíve elements. This is the
discourse on the study of Heng Quan.

Heng Quan

Rising Form - The front hand is a yang fist and the rear hand is a yin fist. The rear hand
moves out from under the ribs, when changing the hands and moving the hand out, the foot
rises, lower the body and twist and the qi will flow smoothly.
Changing Form - The changing form oí Heng Quan uses the "character ten" (+) step, the
body moves obliquely then the step is correct, the rear fist turns over to become a yang fist
and the three points are in a line, the nose and foot follow closely.

Nature of the Five Fists:
Pi Quan is like an axe and belongs to metal, Beng Quan is like an arrow and belongs to
wood, Zuan Quan is like lightning and belongs to water, Pao Quan is like a cannon and
belongs to fire, Heng Quan moves up and down like a spring and belongs to earth.

[Plymouth Rocks]

The overturning fist just before the other one drills upward is a hook.

[Foiling Fist]

The first strike of front ridge hand from outside to inside; can be preceded by an open palm upward-to-downward inward flip of the wrist, to sweep an area before the second rear hand strike.

Marital application can include:
i) using the upper extended hand as an
outward to inward ridge hand strike then using the
rear hand as an inside to outside block-strike.
ii) keep the upper first hand in a continuous palm down circle with the other
second lower hand in the same timed orbit in the opposite direction.

Movement and energies detailed in Axe Hand; Hsing-i & Internal Strength Workout:
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperbac...rkout/15063347

[YouKnowWho]

could someone here please help me to understand the combat application of the crossing fist in the hsing-yi earth form? to me it just looks like a cross block. wouldn't crossing take more time in combat than using say the metal or fire elements ? i am confused.

I had seen that Heng Chuan was used in a challenge fight:

- Your opponent uses low foot sweep at your leading leg (it's a fake). You raise your leg and let the sweep to pass through under your leg.
- Your opponent continues his body spinning and use a tornado kick at your head (fake low and attack high). You step in and use your Heng Chuan to knock on your opponent's waist "while his body is spinning in the air".

I assume Heng Chuan can also be used to against a TKD "spin hook kick" too. As long as your opponent's body is spinning, Heng Chuan will be a good counter for it.

[omarthefish]

Heng is the hardest of the elements to apply. You can pull a lot of stuff out of it; it's just not as obvious as the other four. I think the simplest application is the shot to the floating ribs or the takedown. Stick with those - keep it simple - and let the others come in good time. That's been my approach to it. Coming from a Shaolin background, it's easy for me to get all heady with crazy application variations. Xingyi has some crazy applications for sure, especially with the animals, but I find that a lot of its power as a combat art derives from the simple apps out of the elements.

How ironic the reply I like best would be from the Shaolin guy.

I admit it does sort of look like a Karate/TKD "inside-outside block" but I like it best as a simple punch or throw.

As a punch, it flies fairly straight in. It's just a palm up punch in an almost straight line. The horizontal part more about how it deflects or cuts the blocking limbs out of the way. Someone else on this thread referred to a snow-plough as an metaphor.

As a throw, it's basically the same as "Parting Wild Horses Mane" but with less waist turning and more forward advancing.

[dirtyrat]

the best app i've seen for crossing fist is an arm break; hyperextending the opponent's elbow with your shoulder. from there there are a couple takedowns one can use (i like a variation of a throw shuaijiao calls cracking) depending on how the opponent reacts or tries to resist.