The way a sifu presents himself

[The Xia]

As I said, I have no problem with respect. I'm just not a fan of the boot camp teaching methodology and Dudley Do Right morality indoctrination.

[PangQuan]

it seems your idea against bowing to your teacher and such is because you are american. (edit, this is an assumption, my appologies)

it is not an american tradition to bow in any case for anything. we have our own. we will often shake hands...especially when in a meeting with a teacher, boss, or superior in any business matter. this is common cultural responses to such situations. in china, before the cultural revolution and the west gave much of its business manerisms to the east, this same exact form of respect was given in the form of bowing. all be it for different reasons.

we shake hands to show a form of trust, giving forth our weapon hand empty to the other man. in the east, depending on region or country we bow in different ways. we lower our guard somewhat, show our empty hands, and give respect and trust.

and to this day, this tradition is still upheld, although the western ideas are very prominent in business. and as an american, its generally all you see.

remember that kung fu did not start in america, thus the cultural cross overs and expectations to adhere to some form of cultural tradition.

it would be a total lack of respect to remove all that is chinese from our studies simply because we are selfish americans.

much of your arguments seem to stem from a VERY western ideal and mindset.

nothing wrong there, your a westerner. as am i. im an american and will never nor can i ever change that.

however i can adapt to environments like any other human, humble myself, and pay respects due.

if you meet the ceo of a major company you work for, do you say "sorry i dont shake hands" simply because this is not your custom or belief....

or do you shake the **** mans hand....

its really just common sense and a meshing of cultural traditions and beliefs...if you refuse to bow, or take your shoes off, or any other such traditions. go to a place that does not enforce these things.

some are willing to intake some small format of a cultural tradition, in order to learn a specific tradition or study of said culture.

[The Xia]

Which poster are you directing this at?

[jera]

Personally I think it's should be the minimum. And that only if the students in question really, really works hard.

I do think that in my opinion they award belts a little too quickly in my school. I've been the program for almost a year now and I've been a brown belt for a month and a half. I'm just now actually getting some of the basics down to where I can move on to other things...However that's neither here nor there. I really don't take a whole lot of stock in what color belt you wear....it's what you know.

I agree with you fully. In my old school you could literaly be a black belt in 14 months. thats one of the reasons i quit TKD, we had around 6 eight year olds who were high red belt when i left, 2 of them had never even broken a board. After I saw a kid get promoted for "giving it his all" even though he only knew the first 6 (out of 18) techniqes to som-jang, I knew that I needed to find a new school and a new Martial arts system.

[Fuzzly]

I like my sash. I know how long I had to get my blue sash (over 6 months) and how long it took to get my blue w/ one green (longer) and the amount of sweat, blood, and a torn ACL it took to get them. (Not that the ACL was required, hehe). I kinda smile when I put it on, because to me it's not the sash that is important, but what the sash [I]represents.[I] Is this an ego thing?

Jera, in your school did the childrens' belts=adult belts? What I mean is, that in some schools, a child black belt might be an adult intermediate belt. They aren't exactly equal.

In my experience children need positive reinforcement. They need to hear "Good job!" and know that they are learning something an improving, or they quickly lose interest. This just seems to be the way a lot of kids are. I think belts/sashes can be used as incentives. However, I do think that there should be a distinction between a "child's black belt" and an "adult black belt".


Sorry if this made no sense, I just spent a couple hours on a Symbolic Logic midterm and my brain is a little fried.

[David Jamieson]

my observation regarding part of the question is that there is a growing lack of deferance in people towards the society, knowledge, insttutions etc around them.

people do not trust authority anymore because the only time we see any thing about authority, it is when they are messing up bad.

always the bad points of kungfu schools are brought up and beaten to death over and over again. it's boring when you know different really.

people in general lack deferance and in turn, respect for others tat they are not familiar or sight unseen accepted by or whatever reason. People demand respect, yet won't give it themselves and so on. And it's getting worse and it will continue to get worse before it gets any better if indeed it does get any better.

so, a little deferance to those who have what you do not but want, is not a big thing to ask. they come ready to teach, you should attend ready to learn without your own ego baggage in tow. even if the teacher has a bit of ego, maybe that's your lesson in how to quell your own?

[The Xia]

Every younger generation is called worse by the older ones. In the 60s, it was "These darn hippies. In my day, kids had respect!". In the 50s, it was "These darn greasers. In my day, kids had respect!". In the 20s, it was "These darn flappers! In my day, kids had respect!"
Many look at the past with rose tinted glasses. There was never a wholesome happy-go-lucky time like many believe. And not all that isn't wholesome throughout history can be blamed on the youth.

[jera]

Jera, in your school did the childrens' belts=adult belts? What I mean is, that in some schools, a child black belt might be an adult intermediate belt. They aren't exactly equal.

Yes, in my old school 'all belts are equal no matter what the age' as my 'X' master put it. when they turned 13 they were allowed to join the adult class and they kept their belt.

Though I do give credit to Emanual even though he was only 13 he kicked as high and harder than most people in the adult class.

[BoulderDawg]

I do the bowing in class without objection. I was only making an observation that I really don't see the need in it. In my school it's taken to the extreme. You bow when you walk in/out the door, you bow when you enter and leave the training area, you bow when you walk into the bathroom and then again when you leave, you bow to anybody you directly speak to. Personally I think it's a bit much! One time I forgot and actually entered the training area without bowing and with my shoes on to boot!!!!!! I thought the guy at the desk was going to have a heart attack!

Now as far as general respect I'm going to alter my view a little and say that children and adults should be handled a little differently. The children should be instructed to show a bit more respect to the elder teacher than another adult who is the same age as the teacher.

I think as adults we are going to learn a little better if we really feel at ease with our teachers. In an atmosphere of strict respect I think the student is going to be too stiff and worry more about showing disrespect than learning the material.

[Fuzzly]

At my school we bow when we enter/leave the building, before we get on/off the mat, and when I want to show respect to someone.

It's not all about respect, though. It is also about putting yourself in the right mindset. When I bow when I get in the building I'm saying to myself "All right, I'm here to train, I'm leaving all my crap out there. Let's focus!)

When ever <one word?> you bow, it gives you a second to focus. When I see my Sifu come on the mat, I think of bowing not only as respect, but it also gives me a second to go "Allright, time to change focus, Sifu is gonna say something important, listen up, dummy!".


Also, it never, ever hurts to show respect, wether that person is higher rank, lower rank, older, or younger. Being humble is a good thing.


<Note, humble does NOT equal timidness>


As for the childrens' belts=adult belts, I am not sure how I feel about that, I would have to discuss it with someone who held that sort of view to understand why.

[David Jamieson]

xia-

not remarking on generation gap issues which yes are always about from one generation to another, barring closed societies such as amish, mennonites etc etc.

the lack of deferance is beyond generation gap issues these days. Our whole society is one of distrust first, look out for yourself first and other detrimental social practices that will only lead to fractionalization of the whole.

there are groups that work at keeping it going on, community groups etc etc, but what's bombarding us daily as "cool" and "doable" is eating away at respect for self and others.

radio shows, movies, tv shows, what we read, much of it glorifies a form of radical individualism that goes beyond what would be acceptable around most everyone's table.

don't make me start listing crap and comparing to other eras. I think it is at the point where it's pretty self evident.

anyway, were I a sifu in a school, you can bet you ass I would have 1st say on who gets what from my hands. I don't care how much money you have and how much you believe in a market system, If I ain't diggin you, you ain't getting nothing but out my doors.

[golden arhat]

at our school we wear shorts and a t shirt the instructor leads by example
and everyone has a laugh and were all mates
we just train
no bowing
no saluting
no grades
if one person is senior its because he deserves to be

there is a sign on the apparatus we do dips on tho
it reads

"sticky fingers will not be tolerated
any violators will recieve a severe fukin beating
lol
thats valetudo
and i love it

[ngokfei]

Interesting Thread.

What does "Sifu" mean? Literally it means "Teacher". But there is also a change of characters to mean "Teacher Father".

If we take the 1st translation its pretty simple. just like Mr. Smith the History teacher in school. You attended class, you learned what he taught and if you messed up you failed and was sent to the principles office. Simple.

Now the "Teacher Father" meaning is based on Oriental Culture. We as Non-Orientals have a hard time understanding this. How can a stranger become a "Father Figure"? Again its about culture.

So our view of what a Sifu should be greatly differs.

As for Martial Arts schools we can also compare the Oriental and Non-Oriental comparisson.

We have the "Gym" (ie: boxing/wreastling, etc). The environment is based on our culture compared to a "Kwoon/Dojo, etc" which carries with it alot of customs etc.

America is the melting pot. We take a little bit of this and added it to that. Strange enough thats exactly what they did in Asia, which counts for all the various styles/disciplines that exist today.

Commercial versus Traditional

Thsi has been discussed many times. The taking of money in most western eyes is a sign of commercialism where in Asian society its a sign of respect & culture again.

For me one of my teachers said it perfectly. You will have customers and students. Customers you teach and don't care if they stay or leave. Students become like family. When they leave you miss them.

Respect:

Again its about the culture. Western Martial Arts school have been affected by various groups: The Family School, The Military School and the Religous School. Each promote various aspects of disicplin, loyalty and subserviance. Mix it together and you get the highly successful Commericial + Traditional Mega Schools that exist today.

the family school is very laid back. Most schools I've seen in asia like this have students walking right in the training area and waving to the teacher (no bow no nothing, its dad)

The military school is based on Discipline, Protocol, etc.

The religous school falls on the traditions and rituals (ancestors, altars, etc).

Shoes:

I'm a westerner. I trained Chinese martial arts first and I had to change into the KF boots at school. This wasn't mandatory but sneakers were required (some right off the street). It wasn't until I worked at a hospital did I understand all the germs and Dog Poop, Vomit, Glass, etc. That I had been tracking into my house. Aslo my wife if filipino and a nurse and shoes are left at the door with sandals for inside the house. I did some research and sure people didn't have shoes but they sure would wash there feet off before entering the house.

whoo long winded post

In the end its up to the customer/students desire. Some are looking for the laid back school while others are looking for the Discipline, self confidence while others are looking to explore a totally different culture. So the idea of a Commercial Traditional school is feasible.

But really how can a non-asian really tell people that they are a traditional school? Can they speak the language is probably the biggest hurdle. The main ideas of a style/system are written and spoken in the mother tongue. If I had to rely on my teachers explanations I wouldn't have gotten what little Understanding I have of my system. But that required learning at least how to read Chinese and explore the culture, history and phillosophy as well. Also its funny to see non-asians (especially ones who claim to be christian, etc) have an altar in their school, thats some funny sh.t. Guess its for decoration? Or are they trying to fool their customers/students into thinking something else, Probably this needs to be moved into another thread.

peace

[TenTigers]

BD-ok, NOW I hear what you are saying-when you referred to bowing, I had no idea you guys bowed to enter and leave the bathroom!
Some people tryto be more Asian than Asians. I visited a school, a supposedly Japanese Ninjitsu school (actually it was third generation from the founder-who did Hakko-Ryu and decided one day to wear black and call himself a ninja)
These guys "uss'ed" at everything. The guy would "uss" (osu?) when entering and leaving the dojo floor, but wait-it gets better. His attache' case was just inside the doorway of the dojo, and when he reached his hand in to get it,he uss;ed and when he brought it out, he "uss'ed"-mid sentance, without missing a beat.
"Yeah, we practice uss traditional uss koga ryu ninjitsu."
I know a commercial dojop near me that uses "uss" like it's an expression, like, "YEAH-awright!" whenever someone does something very good, they go,"UUUSSSSSS!!!" and give a high five! (excuse me while I puke)
Here's one that you'll dig-
I was at a convention, and Stephen Hayes was lecturing. anyway, he recounted an experience he had with a school that was trying to be more Japanese than the Japanese. These guys would fold their gi's, and then place them in front of them while in seiza, and bow to the gi. In older times, Martial Artists would strip down to their undergarments to train. This is what the gi actually was. So in essence, these guys were bowing to their Fruit of the Loom's.

btw-fuzly is on the money about it creating a mindset. My school is very nondescript. No big sign, just small letters "Kung-Fu" on the door. We are over a laundramat in a fringe area. You walk up the stairs, and when you get to the top, you enter a different world. It's like a portal. We have a lobby, a moon gate so when you step onto the floor, you are in a place separate from the rest of the world. It is like throwing a switch. The bowing helps serve this purpose as well.
There are many reasons we do this. Respect towards others, respect of self,(when we bow, it is mutual-"If it weren't for me, you would not have a Sifu, but if it weren't for you, I would not be a Sifu") making a positive affirmation. all of the above.
But..some people as Ngok Fei stated do go waayyy overboard.

[The Xia]

I have heard that phrase (or whatever it is) before. I always assumed someone was messing up on "osu". Since TenTigers mentioned seeing it, it can’t be one person’s flub. Does anyone know what it is?