Ideomotor Response

[imperialtaichi]

I cannot see how using the body and the mind at the same time can make a movement "double heavy", because they are essentially the yin and yang of the same Qi and when we exercise with the Qi Ball we are in essence "Yun Qi" or "to circulatre the Qi" and that has to be done by making Yin and Yang - Mind and Body working together.

Hello EJ,

True, Yin and Yang always happen together; you simply cannot have one without another. However, from what I understand, we should only concentrate on one, and let the other happen automatically. From what I have experienced, dealing with both becomes ineffective.

For example, when I do the form, I deal mainly with the Yi, and let the Qi flow which in turn moves my body without my concious effort. Now, the body does move, but I do not willfully control it. And this gives me a feeling which described in TCC classics "not knowing the movements of the arms or the legs".

As mentioned before, this is purely what I have experienced, what my teacher taught me, and what works for me. There are so many way of doing things that works well. And that's why we have a forum to discuss things.

Cheers,
John

[extrajoseph]

Hello EJ,

True, Yin and Yang always happen together; you simply cannot have one without another. However, from what I understand, we should only concentrate on one, and let the other happen automatically. From what I have experienced, dealing with both becomes ineffective.

If what you say is true, then it is equally possible to concentrate on the body and let the mind happen automatically. As for dealing with both at the same time, I never have any problems with it, after all we are made of body and mind at the same time.

For example, when I do the form, I deal mainly with the Yi, and let the Qi flow which in turn moves my body without my concious effort. Now, the body does move, but I do not willfully control it. And this gives me a feeling which described in TCC classics "not knowing the movements of the arms or the legs".

Could you please tell us which TCC classis the above mentioned quote came from and if at all possible the Chinese characters? I have never heard of this saying before because "not knowing the movements of the arms or the legs" means there is no mindfulness and no qi for it contradicted the saying "where the mind goes qi will follow".

As mentioned before, this is purely what I have experienced, what my teacher taught me, and what works for me. There are so many way of doing things that works well. And that's why we have a forum to discuss things.

I must say my experience is very different to yours and my three Taijiquan teachers all said the opposite thing to your teacher (safer to start with the body first then work towards the mind for the tangible is easier to grasp than the intangible), is it interesting? Any way, I am glad you are not taking things too personally.

Regards,

EJ

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

While i enjoy the classics and find it useful to examine things as component parts, ultimately, we are One thing.. an integrated symphony of systems. Imbalance is manifested through separation of the integrated being into parts.. attending to the "parts" is an evolutionary step toward unifying the Whole, where any aspect of the whole is manifested according to the immediate necessity (stimulus).. From my experiences and research, this is the realization of Taiji.. no dependency or exclusion of differing aspects, a coherent flow of appropriate responses..

Too much study of "parts" without integrating principles can leave us confused as to the appropriateness of our actions..

"Be One with the ball, Danny", Chevy Chase in Caddy Shack.. Be One with yourself..

Be well..

[kung fu fighter]

Hello John,


Quote:
Originally Posted by imperialtaichi
Yes, when my teacher throws me, it is always a light touch, and the power seems to come from elsewhere. It is actually not the contact point that throws you, the touch is merely to conduct the power through.

In your opinion was your teacher using the concept like the Tai Chi classics often talk about of using the Yi and not the force; which means the formation of the Qi structures should be "Yi Dependent" and the body merely follows it, or was it something different like "ling kong ging"?

[alquimista]

Hello ... im sorry about my bad english ... i just read this thread for the 1st time ... i am a little confused about all this western scientific names like ideomotor, CTS, IMR ... i didnt read all messages (they are too many already) but i think the main point of the thread is about when the body moves by itself with no conscious mind activity ...

Tao Te Ching explain this with “non-action”

In chapter 3 it says : Exercise “non-action” to rule and all will be well

When you live in harmony with Tao you act with no conscious mind activity ... because you are in harmony with everything around ... your instict will allways know what to do without the need of think. I practice Taiji (only meditation forms – no martial art) for 7 years and my master says that i will only be practicing Taiji for real if i can reach the state of Wuji (emptyness) ... so i can play the all form without thinking in what i´m doing ... just flowing naturally like water in the river... he says when i dont think i can feel the energy of Tao flowing in my body ... its difficult to play the all form without thinking ... i can only do it for some movements and is really like my body is moving alone... i just have to think when i start and then i just stop thinking and my body continues to move ... its a sensation that i can not describe ... but is really good ... i really hope one day i can play the all form like this ... it makes me feel really happy and in a very good mood.

I think in martial arts must be the same but much more difficult because you are fighting and everything happens so fast ...

I would like to know if any of you play Taiji following this principle ... if yes i would like to know about your feelings when you play.

Thank You,

Jorge

[imperialtaichi]

Hello EJ,

If what you say is true, then it is equally possible to concentrate on the body and let the mind happen automatically. As for dealing with both at the same time, I never have any problems with it, after all we are made of body and mind at the same time.

Ah ha! Exactly! you can't possibly move your arm without your mind at all. The only difference is, if your movements are body centric, the power comes out differently. There are things the mind can do that the body cannot, such as "Xin duan yi bu duan" which means the structure stops but the mind does not. I have been thrown both by people who are body centric and mind centric; both as powerful, but when people who are body centric throwing me it feels like being hit by a truck; with mind centric it feels like being carried off by a breeze.

Could you please tell us which TCC classis the above mentioned quote came from and if at all possible the Chinese characters? I have never heard of this saying before because "not knowing the movements of the arms or the legs" means there is no mindfulness and no qi for it contradicted the saying "where the mind goes qi will follow".

I'll look it up . The concept is everywhere anyway. For example (operating from memory here) Wu Yu Xiang mentioned "Si Jin you Dong, Si Dong you Jin" which means "see stillness as moving, see moving as stillness". It does not contradict the saying "where mind goes qi follows" when Yi moves->qi follows->body move by qi; so if you break it down, really yi does not move body, it is the qi that moves the body.

I must say my experience is very different to yours and my three Taijiquan teachers all said the opposite thing to your teacher (safer to start with the body first then work towards the mind for the tangible is easier to grasp than the intangible), is it interesting? Any way, I am glad you are not taking things too personally.

Of course, for biginners, one must start training with the body first, the yi concept would be too difficult for biginners. But, the yi concept should be introduced as soon as the student is capable of it.
I am not surprised your three teachers says things different from my teacher. Very few people teaches what my teacher teaches. I've been doing MA for a long time yet Wei Shuren is the first person who explains to me the way he does. I'm not comparing quality here, just different. If your methods works for you, that's great. I am here to discuss and learn. I won't take it personal.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

...In chapter 3 it says : Exercise “non-action” to rule and all will be well

...i can only do it for some movements and is really like my body is moving alone... i just have to think when i start and then i just stop thinking and my body continues to move ... its a sensation that i can not describe ... but is really good ...

Thanks Jorge! Well said!

[imperialtaichi]

In your opinion was your teacher using the concept like the Tai Chi classics often talk about of using the Yi and not the force; which means the formation of the Qi structures should be "Yi Dependent" and the body merely follows it, or was it something different like "ling kong ging"?

Hello KFF,

I have experienced the influences of LKJ, but the effect seems very minimal. I have yet to see it done on people totally non-cooperative and can still knock the person down.

Relationship between Yi->Qi->Body:

Yi can jump around, appearing and disappearing, can form any patterns. The difficulty is in recognising the True Yi, without which the Qi won't follow and the whole equation breaks down.

Qi follows the Yi, but flows from one place to another, and cannot just jump around. However, Qi is also everywhere which means we can utilize them anywhere we want.

Body moves by Qi, but don't deliberately follow it. It has to be natural. We just have to let it be. The easiest part.

Cheers,
John

[extrajoseph]

Hello EJ,
Ah ha! Exactly! you can't possibly move your arm without your mind at all. The only difference is, if your movements are body centric, the power comes out differently. There are things the mind can do that the body cannot, such as "Xin duan yi bu duan" which means the structure stops but the mind does not. I have been thrown both by people who are body centric and mind centric; both as powerful, but when people who are body centric throwing me it feels like being hit by a truck; with mind centric it feels like being carried off by a breeze.
Cheers,
John

Dear John,

The guy that can make you feel like being carried off by a breeze is not just mind centric, his body and mind are in tune with yours so it is “ziran” and “wu wei” at work. Being “ziran” and “wu wei” means both yin and yang are involved, that is both the body and the mind are involved, or to you’re your terminology being BOTH body AND mind centric.

The saying you quoted above, "xin duan yi bu duan" (I think it should be “shen duan yi bu xuan” - when the body is broken the mind is not) can have its opposite as well and that is there are things the body can do that the mind cannot. So a really accomplished player should be able to throw you like being hit by a truck OR being carried off by a breeze. If he can only do one and not the other, then he is not yet there.

“We are what we eat” as well as “we are what we think”, to say one is more true or one is more important than another shows that person don’t know about being a human.

Any way, all that mincing of words is just a waste of time, I can see your postures on your webpage and they showed your thinking is in your body. It is hard to change the way we think, so the alternative would be to work on our body, otherwise our art will always be only mind centric. Daoist thinking emphasised on the soft overcoming the hard, but to do that one needs to know what is like being hard first. Without knowing your body, what you know in your mind will only be in the clouds.

What I am trying to say is to see the whole and not just one part of the jigsaw that is Taijiquan; otherwise you will only be doing Taijigong thinking you are doing Taijiquan for the rest of your life. I will sign off on this one now. No offence intended, just my personal opinion.

Regards,
EJ

[imperialtaichi]

....Any way, all that mincing of words is just a waste of time, I can see your postures on your webpage and they showed your thinking is in your body. It is hard to change the way we think, so the alternative would be to work on our body, otherwise our art will always be only mind centric. Daoist thinking emphasised on the soft overcoming the hard, but to do that one needs to know what is like being hard first. Without knowing your body, what you know in your mind will only be in the clouds.

What I am trying to say is to see the whole and not just one part of the jigsaw that is Taijiquan; otherwise you will only be doing Taijigong thinking you are doing Taijiquan for the rest of your life. I will sign off on this one now. No offence intended, just my personal opinion.

Hello EJ,

Although we disagree on certain issues, you write very well and very logically, and I respect that. I actually enjoy reading your posts, as you present a view very different from mine, which gives me "brain food" to contemplate on.

Cheers,
John