the hells angel ad

[David Jamieson]

It's called Freedom of Speech.

I for one am against illegal drugs. But I'm not going to gripe about 'High Times' being for illegal drug use.

Why?

Because it's called Freedom of Speech.

There are people against martial arts because they think they are violent, but I don't want to get rid of martial arts magazines just for those people.

Otherwise you have a very boring political correct society. There's enough of that already without encouraging it.

'Thought Police' are so boring. Instead of railing against having it in the magazine, how about you just rail against them, and Gene prints it in the magazine? Which is what happened, right? (Actually it was railing against being in the magazing and Gene printed that).

Anyway, suppression of speech is boring. I think just because of your comments against this I will subscribe just to show my support.

ok, where to start. lol.

Not supporting a group that has a conflicting ideology to yours is not suppression, It is non-support.

Should Kungfu magazine have a Nambla member in a tai chi pose? How would that make you feel?

degrees, you need to understand degrees.

there is a difference between someone who is starving who steals bread and someone who manufactures meth and distributes it for a living.

there is a difference between not supporting a group and oppressing or suppressing their rights.

You guys need to understand teh real face of the HA. I don't think you do. I think maybe you have had some good experiences withindividual members or maybe even through loose association with one or two of the members.

make no mistake, these are not your friends and the organization they are in will dictate to them what is what and if they were told to off you, then your days are numbered.

Guys, the reality is sooooooo different from the romantic view that groups like these would have you buy into. The whole rebel without a cause, ride free live free nonsense thet the HA robotically pump out when questioned about their organization and it's workings.

the obfuscation they provide at their own website regarding what it is to be a member, how to become a member or how to start a chapter.

the standard answer is "if you don't know, you probably shouldn't ask"

what does this imply to you when compared to asking these fairly innocuous question of any other club like say Lions Club or Kinsmen and so on? Leave a lot of room to speculate doesn't it.

Robin hoods they ain't boys. Nobody here is suppressing the hells angels rights to free speech. they have a website, they publish stuff, they sell merchandise with their logio and axioms and so on. I wouldn't print one word of their crap on my sites or anything. I wouldn't reiterate their views on anything, in anyway and in any form. Am I suppressing their free speech because I don't support their views? No. Am I suppressing their free speech because I don't want to here their crap and I don't want to find it in a crossover form in other areas? No. I don't want this group infiltrating every corner of society and franbkly I would rather have them in areas that can be easily identified and breeched by police organizations.

i would like to see the collapse of them to be honest simply because of the lives they have brought to ruination.

If you spend too much time second thinking even after being presented the evidence time and again over numerous incidences and years, then perhaps you are not the right person to make any decision whatsoever about this.

It is something that is not grey in my eyes. It has come to a point where it is very black and white what this group stands for.

as for the rest, criminal thinking is always looking for the easy way and almost always at the expense of someone else well being.

Highway traffic act offenses are the abuse of the priviledge of driving. If you screw up your priviledge, it is no one's fault but your own. period. If you need to get to work, find another way.

[Faruq]

After reading the "Chan Tai San Stories" thread, I wonder how many of the masters featured throughout the years were known Chinese gangsters? I mean if featuring a criminal is wrong in one context, how is it not wrong in another? I personally don't have a problem in either instance.

i read a letter in the latest issue complaining about u using a known gang member to promote your magazine

i also think this is wrong not just because criminal gangs are just that CRIMINALS but also that your magazine is excellent and i dont think it should be associated with low lives such as him

[golden arhat]

i could not agree with dj more
he put into words exactly what i was thinking
well said

[David Jamieson]

After reading the "Chan Tai San Stories" thread, I wonder how many of the masters featured throughout the years were known Chinese gangsters? I mean if featuring a criminal is wrong in one context, how is it not wrong in another? I personally don't have a problem in either instance.

Well, we are wondering as well. the thing is, it is not safe to assume in the case where there is no promotion of the gang or it's symbology or it's ideology.

It is indeed wrong to feature a criminal. But what of a reconciled and turned around man? Now that would be something wouldn't it. Someone who actually used Kungfu to turn their life around and put it all behind them and start in a positive direction.

But, let's not play guessing games, no one is with the HA, I mean, there he is, wearing their colours. Quite blatant.

As for criminal kungfu masters, they aren't as common as all that. Take a look at teh codes of various and sundry schools, the mo duk, the wu de expressly, in almost every single instance forbids criminal behaviour. So, it's not likely you'll find them for the most part and you certainly won't find them promoting their gang or the mnagazine promoting the gang.

people change.

[Faruq]

I don't know that the majority of masters in the Chinatowns teach in schools. From the CTS article, it seems many don't teach at all, and many that do teach teach in 'associations' or 'organisations'. I don't have a problem with it, and if I did, I didn't invent gong fu to begin with and don't have the copyright on it, so who would I be to complain?

Well, we are wondering as well. the thing is, it is not safe to assume in the case where there is no promotion of the gang or it's symbology or it's ideology.

It is indeed wrong to feature a criminal. But what of a reconciled and turned around man? Now that would be something wouldn't it. Someone who actually used Kungfu to turn their life around and put it all behind them and start in a positive direction.

But, let's not play guessing games, no one is with the HA, I mean, there he is, wearing their colours. Quite blatant.

As for criminal kungfu masters, they aren't as common as all that. Take a look at teh codes of various and sundry schools, the mo duk, the wu de expressly, in almost every single instance forbids criminal behaviour. So, it's not likely you'll find them for the most part and you certainly won't find them promoting their gang or the mnagazine promoting the gang.

people change.

[lunghushan]

Yeah, David, I'm not interested in Nambla members unless they can fight well.

Honestly I wouldn't mind MORE criminals in the magazine if they highlighted their fighting methods. That would be worth an issue unto itself.

Because who are you going to go up against on the street? Criminals, right?

Law abiding citizens don't really go around attacking people, do they? If they did then they would be criminals.

[GeneChing]

...is what the next "find your peace in practice" ad will be. Fuki is going to be a tough act to follow.

[@PLUGO]

um . . . I have a couple of ideas... but it would require a bit of driving.

[golden arhat]

how about
a goth going through the iron wire set or a bagua routine ?

[David Jamieson]

if someone wants to be a cop, then go be a cop. training in kungfu doesn't make you a crime busting hero.

deliberately looking for crimes to stop is something that is only done by police or in comic books and when it's done by a regular joe like you or me, it's tantamount to mere misguided vigilanteism.

criminals practicing martial arts and the martial arts themselves are actually disconnected. I think that ultimately, that's the point of the ad, i just don't think that that sort of perspective is taken by most people when presented with that imagery and ergo, my implicitly being against the ad in and of itself.

people aren't hip enough to get it at that level and it likely shouldn't be presented in such fashion because of that fundamental lacking.

having said that, how about cops doing taichi together? even time?
what about a dude in a suite on his lunch break going through some postures in a park while other people walk around.

how about kids? how about soccer moms? wahta bout a row of apple pies on a window, mom, a baseball game and tai chi all worked into teh same montage? that would totally speak to a good chunk of your reeaders. lol

anywa, i've said my piece ( a couple of times now), im done with this.

[herb ox]

people aren't hip enough to get it at that level and it likely shouldn't be presented in such fashion because of that fundamental lacking.

I understood the context of the ad from the beginning, so does that make me hip? It didn't take much to understand that even a seemingly hard-arsed Hell's Angel has a soft side.

Frankly, I think you guys have spent waaay too much time arguing this one.

Hate the game, not the playa'!

I didn't much care to see the CEO of AOL on the cover of the mag, either. I dispise big business and mega-corporations. And yet, I still read the article and realized, even if I disagree with someone's lifestyle, we can still have a meeting of the minds thru a common practice. Let's build community rather than highlight our pre-judged differences.

find your peace in practice!

~ox claat

[b82rez]

To be honest, I find it very difficult to listen to the "my life sucks" type of excuses that people proclaim as reasons for criminal behavior. I may have been raised comfortably but my parents were not. They came over from India with not much more than determination and worked HARD for everything they earned. At college, I was lucky enough to meet several friends who themselves were from disadvantaged backgrounds, but who worked HARD and made it for themselves.

How come they decided to be legit while their peers decided to sell drugs?

On the other side of the world (China, India), the majority of society is content with living simply. People will work hard and honest even if it's just for the next meal.

Whatever the causes, people in this country are (for the most part) always looking for the easy way out (yeah yeah, profit maximization, I'm not just speaking economically).

lunghushan: You got another thing coming if you think one drunken night in a county jail gives you insight into the criminal mind. And the economic situation in China, India, Africa, South America, etc, etc is FAR WORSE than it is in this country. At least in this county, if you want a meal or a place to sleep chances are you can find one.

You know if someone really is trying to make ends meet...all laws should be obeyed, money should NOT be spent on alcohol or drugs but should be saved for investment or for things like License Renewals. Excuses are for stalling, not for solving anything.

DJ said enough about the HA to explain why promotion of their organization is bad. MA is about self-discipline and understanding yourself and your relation to others in a more peaceful and complete manner. HA represents the opposite...it has no place here.

Oh...and NO, KFM should not showcase criminal fighters who hurt people for their own pleasure or purpose. But if you want to analyze competition fighters who may have had criminal pasts...that might be different.

[GeneChing]

...you're one digit off, you know.

Find your peace in practice is one of our more artsy image ads. We've only done two. I'm delighted to see that the second one, this HA one, did exactly what could art should do. It stimulated intercourse. It's all about stimulating intercourse. The message is ambiguous but that's also a common quality of art. Good art forces you to put yourself into the work. It's a dialogue between artist and viewer. It also doesn't need to please anyone. If anything, it should be challenging.

We've shot the next FYPIP ad. It's coming at you soon. But as Design Sifu puts it, it's wholesome.

[Banjos_dad]

how dare someone have the audacity to try and improve himself and maybe learn a different perspective in the process.
hmmph! the very idea

** note: the content above is intended as 'sarcasm.' **
(This disclaimer added for the perceptively challenged.)

[golden arhat]

not a clue what that sarcasm is in relation to
i started this thread AGES ago and people generally stopped talkin on it a while back lol