LOL @ Victor grabbing beers and missing the three fights that finished from the guard, (triangle and two guillotines).
Anything that's been that high percentage for that many people over that many matches? Yerp, hasta sug...
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LOL @ Victor grabbing beers and missing the three fights that finished from the guard, (triangle and two guillotines).
Anything that's been that high percentage for that many people over that many matches? Yerp, hasta sug...
Registered User
yeah, people don't realize...all techniques suck when they don't work. and all techniques are great if they do.
it's how you execute.
URD!
No sh!t, Lister has a mean ground game, and he was setting himself up for a lot of unusual submissions...I liked watching him.Originally Posted by reneritchie
Fisher and Winman was insane, and Brandon Vera's guillotine...that was awesome!
It was a good show.
Last edited by AmanuJRY; 05-30-2006 at 08:48 AM.
Sapere aude, Justin.
The map is not the Terrain.
"Wheather you believe you can, or you believe you can't...You're right." - Henry Ford
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Royce’s standup skills definitely could use some work… no argument there.So Why did Royce lose?
No real stand up skills (which translated into being backed up against the fence followed by weak defensive fighting when in the clinch
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That's not where he lost the fight, though. He didn't get KTFTO while standing, but, rather, on the ground.
LOL @ “anti-takedown” skills against All-American FREESTYLE wrestler and BJJ practitioner Matt Hughes.no real anti takedown skills (which is a must against a quality wrestler like Hughes),
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LOL @ bridging and rolling out against All-American FREESTYLE wreslter/BJJ practitioner Matt Hughes.and no real ESCAPE skills when he was taken down and put into cross chest position by Matt (ie.- bridging, roll outs, etc.)
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THIS is where Royce lost the fight… For some reason (time limits, maybe?) he used a more aggressive style (more closely related to the catch strategy you recommend than his more traditional BJJ strategy he usually uses) and tried to escape. Instead of remaining in bottom side control until an opening presented itself, he forced the situation and went to his knees where he fished for a Kimura (again abandoning his BJJ strategy of position before submission). This resulted in giving Hughes the underhook he needed to take the back.
Again, LOL @ taking down or escaping from an All-American FREESTYLE wrestler/ BJJ’er like Matt Hughes. What got him beat was the mindset of having to be aggressive and try to work to escape the side control position.It's the whole mindset that got him beat - because the best grappling requires either being the man who takes the other man down - or stopping his attempts to take you down - or escaping IMMEDIATELY if you are taken down and find yourself on the bottom.
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Tell that to the four fighters who lost (Jeremy Horn also finished his opponent with an arm bar from the guard, but it wasn’t shown on PPV) while being submitted when they were in the more “dominant” top position that night.but it's not fighting for a more "efficient" bottom position.
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When your opponent is stronger and more powerful with freestyle wrestling and BJJ skills, working from the guard is about your only chance.
Victor, you've been doing catch for something like 20 years now, right? If it is really more efficient, with that number of years of training, you should be able to win most submission grappling tourneys, shouldn't you?
How about getting out there and competing in some open submission grappling tournaments (instead of just yapping from behind your keyboard) and then come back and tell us how your “more efficient” catch style worked out for you.
Last edited by Knifefighter; 05-30-2006 at 10:06 AM.
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That would put you in the advanced diviision in submission grappling tourneys.
So, it should be a simple thing for you to sweep the advanced men's division in the next submission grappling tourney in your area. All you've got to do is get a takedown and use your super-duper catch skills to neutralize your opponents' hips to shut down their offensive attempts.Which has nothing to do with the fact that it's next to impossible to stop a good wrestler from locking your hips with his hips when you put him in guard - becasue he's on top and will call the shots in this regard if he wants to.
My bet is you getting armbarrred in under two minutes. But of course this will never happen because you never actually get out there and put your theories to the test by competing against other skilled grapplers. You just flap your gums and espouse your theories on internet forums.
Banned
Sorry but I'm not taking the bait, Frank...
The discussion here is not about me - as a way to bypass the real issues presented on this thread...
which is that Gracie lost to Hughes because both he and his style of fighting were overmatched.
I invite those who have been following this thread to carefully read over once again a part of what Dale Frank (knifefighter) said in a previous post:
"What got him (Royce) beat was the mindset of having to be aggressive and try to work to escape the side control position."
***THIS IS REALLY LAUGHABLE.
For those of you who saw the fight and remember it clearly - or better yet - if you have it on vid and can rewatch it...I ask the following question:
DID ROYCE HAVE ANY CHOICE BUT TO AT LEAST TRY AND FIGHT HIS WAY OUT OF HUGHE'S SIDE CONTROL WITH AN AGGRESSIVE ATTEMPT TO ESCAPE ???
Answer: No choice at all. Because nothing else he tried was working and the situation was getting very desparate. It was his only hope - meager as it was.
Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 05-30-2006 at 08:06 PM.
Registered User
It would be nice to see someone (you) who is a pure grappling theoretician actuallly put his theories to the test in the laboratory of competition against other grapplers, but I'm sure that will never happen.
Of course he had another choice.... one that would have lost him the round, but at least given him a chance to move to the second round. He could have stayed in bottom side control position and just defended until the round was over.
URD!
Your guy's personal quabble aside, I'm with Knifefighter in most of his statements regarding Royce.
I believe his odds would be better if he tried working from the guard...
Sapere aude, Justin.
The map is not the Terrain.
"Wheather you believe you can, or you believe you can't...You're right." - Henry Ford
Banned
To each his own.
Joined this list Feb 2001
I disagree. He got out of side control and established half guard. It appeared to me that Royce actually had a very large opportunity to establish full guard from there, but chose not to take it for whatever reason. (Perhaps another viewing angle would show why better.)
This argument is fallacious. How about reversing it: Royce Gracie is one of the most proficient Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practitioners in the sport. How did Matt Hughes beat him? By spending the last several years learning Brazilian Jiu Jitsu - not Catch Wrestling. Does it make any more sense to you that way?
Nothing in this fight validates anything in Catch Wrestling, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, or Ving Tsun. These are elite level people you are discussing.
The elite of a particular methodology do not prove its effectiveness. A If someone like Chuck Liddel wanted to make Moon Walking work in competition, he could probably figure out a way to do so without too much difficulty. But to prove that learning Moon Walking will be conducive to a better training methodology would require the "average Joe" to have a modicum of effectiveness using it.
Do you want to prove your methodology effective? I think someone on another forum said it best:
1. The elite are competitive with those of other arts
2. It shows a reproducible improvement in fighting ability for the average Joe
3. It produces fewer annoying d0rks.
While claims and beliefs are all well and good, if the above cannot be demonstrated, then all the claims and beliefs amount to are some interesting theories.
When you control the hands and feet, there are no secrets.
http://www.Moyyat.com
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If you watch the fight closely, you will see Royce trying multiple times attempting to put Hughes back into the full guard, but Hughes had a very strong defense to that going (watch his left leg movements). Hughes also did a very nice pass when Royce went for the sweep/heelhook attempt from the 1/2 guard.
Overall, excellent technical ground work by Hughes..
Last edited by Knifefighter; 05-31-2006 at 10:56 AM.
Unregistered User
im pretty sure the only person that can say for a fact why royce lost is royce.
other than that its all speculation based on personal experience and knowledge of the sport.
royce knows he lost, and he knows why he lost.
whether he was over matched, out skilled, made the wrong decision or just playing fuked up...he lost.
A man has only one death. That death may be as weighty as Mt. Tai, or it may be as light as a goose feather. It all depends upon the way he uses it....
~Sima Qian
Master pain, or pain will master you.
~PangQuan
"Just do your practice. Who cares if someone else's practice is not traditional, or even fake? What does that have to do with you?"
~Gene "The Crotch Master" Ching
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Joined this list Feb 2001
Ah, well. That's different. Obviously, Victor is 100% right in every conceivable way about Catch Wrestling's superiority.
I saw the fight only once from one angle - an angle which also did not show Royce Gracie's double jointed elbow the commentators were freaking out about.
When you control the hands and feet, there are no secrets.
http://www.Moyyat.com
Banned
Now let me tell you guys (once again) what I remember about the last minute or so of the fight...
beginning with after Royce got half guard and couldn't get full guard because of Hughes's skillful blocking...
Royce had half guard on Matt's right leg - while Matt was still in pretty much a cross chest position (side control)...and had already given Royce fits (and mucho pain) with the figure 4 arm lock on Royc'es left arm/elbow...
that lock (as an attempted submission) was already gone and both of Matt's arms were free to go elsewhere...and then the following major turning point in the fight took place:
Hughes trapped Gracie's right arm on the floor with his free left leg...
which would now leave Matt's left fist free to savage the right side of Royce's head and face with punches - that would be virtually impossible to defend...
and it's then that Royce turned into his right side and tried to get up - which was his only possible escape route at that point.
As I said earlier - he had no choice but to go for it quickly and aggressively - but Matt took his back and you know the rest.
Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 05-31-2006 at 02:10 PM.
Banned
Btw...Royce Gracie has started a thread on the UG thanking people for their support. The guy's got class. Here's what he had to say in the opening post:
From: RoyceGracie
Date: 05/29/06 01:31 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
1145 Total Posts
I would like to thank all the fans that were supporting me for this fight against Matt Hughes. I want to thank 15,000 plus fans that showed up at the Staple Center and really made me feel welcome and hundreeds of thoughsands that purchased the PPV. I am very disapointed in the outcome of the fight. I did not train for a fight like that and want to appologize to the fans who expected more. Matt Hughes is a great champion and he was the better man that night, I give him all the credit. He was very humble in his victory and that shows a true champion.
I am going to take a little time off from training and spend with the family. BUT I WILL BE BACK TO FIGHTHTING BEFORE THEN END OF THE YEAR.
Thank you again for your support
Royce Gracie
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