Gracie gets beat...

[AmanuJRY]

No more perfect record...what do y'all think about that?

[Chum Kil]

Glad to see Matt win. He's a Human Pit Pull, LOL

[anerlich]

Props to him for continuing to put it on the line in the ring, rather than basing his reputation on schoolboy fights on HK rooftops mid last century. Props to Matt also.

Whether his record is "perfect" is open to argument ... Wallid Ismail choked him out once in a gi match, and Sakuraba and Yoshida gave him a tremendously hard time in MMA.

Whatever, everyone gets beat eventually. Everyone has bad days, everyone gets old. Muhammad Ali got hammered toward the end of his career, but IMO there are few if any fighters who command the same respect.

[AmanuJRY]

I have to agree that Gracie deserves props for even stepping in the ring, instead of resting on the glory of his past. And, he took defeat like a real stand-up guy (no pun intended)

Besides, he said he has a few fights left in him.

BTW...anerlich, are you guys getting the Henry Rollins Show down there???

[Jeff Bussey]

For anyone who is interested in seeing it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tXpd...ughes%20gracie

[Vajramusti]

Thanks for the link. Kudos to both the contestants. Hughes' athleticism is very evident- a champion college wrestler who adjusted to ground and pound. Royce's patience and grace under pressure is also evident. He did create that house-though now there is a new and younger generation. Bound to happen eventually in spectator sports- whether its the ring or the octagon.

joy chaudhuri

[jesper]

What exactly does this thread has to do with WC

[AmanuJRY]

What exactly does this thread has to do with WC

I practice WC and I wanted to start a thread discussing the last UFC.

Is there a problem with that?

[gabe]

What exactly does this thread has to do with WC

Well there was a bit of a lineage war here.

[Ultimatewingchun]

This is the first page of a thread on the UG entitled:

Western Wrestling + Boxing =


From: tx mma'er
Date: 06/01/06 10:49 PM
Member Since: 10/01/2005
171 Total Posts Ignore User


the winning fighting combo. Along with a little sub defense, of course. Kicks are worthless for non-genetic freaks like Cro-Cop, IMO, and everyone is increasingly becoming wary of subs, IMO.
On TUF, the deaf guy sucks at boxing, but is still dominating the BJJ ace in the fight right now. Countless others have the same style, but more refined- Liddell, Hendo, Rampage, Couture, Gomi, etc....

Great wrestlers that know how to throw hands and have basic submission knowledge will rule MMA in the future.

Opinions?


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From: Esteban Barragan
Date: 06/01/06 11:03 PM
Member Since: 11/25/2005
95 Total Posts Ignore User


If you think that, then you should drop by my gym

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From: mog87
Date: 06/01/06 11:05 PM
Member Since: 01/17/2006
207 Total Posts Ignore User


in the future you mean in the present, in the future you will have to be good at every aspect of the game.

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From: jasculs
Date: 06/01/06 11:08 PM
Member Since: 07/28/2002
797 Total Posts Ignore User


"but is still dominating the BJJ ace"
2 1/2 years of jiu jitsu is hardly a BJJ ace, plus his jiu jitsu sucked ass. He is probably a beginner blue belt at best.


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From: Wasa-B
Date: 06/01/06 11:09 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
13318 Total Posts Ignore User


The boxing/wrestling combo is great and has done wonders for the Liddels, Gomis, CCs, Kids, Hendos, Jens', etc but if they get taken down, you need bjj/the guard (though both the wrestling/bjj aspects help them get back up).

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From: AvAMajestic
Date: 06/01/06 11:09 PM
Member Since: 10/22/2002
557 Total Posts Ignore User


Opinions?
Basically that you know very little about the fight game.


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From: pulsar
Date: 06/01/06 11:11 PM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
25897 Total Posts Ignore User


If you choose to ignore either of the 3 points of the MMA triangle - striking, takedowns and groundwork you are only fooling yourself.





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From: Haole
Date: 06/01/06 11:12 PM
Member Since: 03/30/2006
1048 Total Posts Ignore User


If you think that, then you should drop by my gym
I will send Couture, Baroni, Hendo and Gomi right over, what the address?


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From: FightStudent
Date: 06/01/06 11:55 PM
Member Since: 05/28/2004
1465 Total Posts Ignore User


I think that what the initial poster is saying the MMA'er who realizes the greatest success as a fighter, in the shortest amount of time, is the one who comes from a Wrestling and Boxing background, who supplements his pre-existing skills with submission defense and "Muay Thai" (i.e. kicks, knees, and elbow strikes) defense; he does not necessarily need to learn submission or Muay Thai style striking, he only need to defend against it.
I don't necessarily agree with the initial poster, but I think that that is basically what he is saying.


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From: pulsar
Date: 06/02/06 12:17 AM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
25903 Total Posts Ignore User


"I don't necessarily agree with the initial poster, but I think that that is basically what he is saying."
And that's precisely where I disagree. If you look at grass roots level shows, still many fights are won by submission...

It's the veteran wrestlers at the top of the food chain that get the most accolades... Which is to be expected.

I personally think Wrestling is the best base too, but it absolutely MUST incorporate submissions to be successful, so you could argue they are as important as each other.


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From: PoundforPound
Date: 06/02/06 03:05 AM
Member Since: 01/01/2001
5471 Total Posts Ignore User


Submissions are absolutely necessary. And I'd argue that Muay Thai leg kicks, elbows, and knees are too.
But yeah, boxing and wrestling are a solid base to start from.


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From: 50rounds
Date: 06/02/06 03:12 AM
Member Since: 05/13/2006
638 Total Posts Ignore User


"but is still dominating the BJJ ace"
"2 1/2 years of jiu jitsu is hardly a BJJ ace, plus his jiu jitsu sucked ass. He is probably a beginner blue belt at best."

Nickels IS a blue belt

he's no kind of standard bearer for BJJ fighters

tell Sakara that all he needed to beat Lister was boxing & wrestling


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From: effinggoof
Date: 06/02/06 03:17 AM
Member Since: 01/18/2003
3127 Total Posts Ignore User


Wrestling+ boxing= ground and pound

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From: Haole
Date: 06/02/06 01:15 PM
Member Since: 03/30/2006
1061 Total Posts Ignore User


tell Sakara that all he needed to beat Lister was boxing & wrestling
He doesnt have any wrestling he is a boxer/JJ guy.






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From: triso
Date: 06/02/06 01:21 PM
Member Since: 01/09/2006
267 Total Posts Ignore User


When will people stop using examples of cross-trained fighters, and intentionally chosen wins of said fighters to prove their "points" and "theories" about which style/base is best?
Give it up. You're making yourself look stupid.


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From: MMAPitbull
Date: 06/02/06 02:29 PM
Member Since: 05/15/2003
894 Total Posts Ignore User


It is simple. You must have bjj,wrestling,Muay Thai, and boxing. That is the best combo. If you do not train one of these, you will eventually be exposed.

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From: Haole
Date: 06/02/06 02:34 PM
Member Since: 03/30/2006
1065 Total Posts Ignore User


It is simple. You must have bjj,wrestling,Muay Thai, and boxing. That is the best combo. If you do not train one of these, you will eventually be exposed.
Shut up

-Chuck Liddell


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From: JInJackson
Date: 06/02/06 02:42 PM
Member Since: 02/26/2004
205 Total Posts Ignore User


So which one of those four does Chuck not train in?

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From: Haole
Date: 06/02/06 02:44 PM
Member Since: 03/30/2006
1066 Total Posts Ignore User


MT

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From: Haole
Date: 06/02/06 02:45 PM
Member Since: 03/30/2006
1067 Total Posts Ignore User


Fedor says shutup also.

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[Knifefighter]

Victor-
Why aren't you over there telling them how important WC is in the MMA mix?
That should liven up the discussion.

[stricker]

actually something thats been talked about a bit recently in mma is the difference in fighting strategy from boxing or thai to mma. the big changes in stand up are 1. be more aggressive always attack dont let up when you get the advantage eg you cant spend time figuring them out like early rounds in boxing or thai 2. hitting in the clinch etc is more important eg dirty boxing 3. watch for level changes and other takedowns eg trips

now to me 1 and 2 are what wing chun is! the wing chun people in mma so far have sucked at 3 tho but take a stripped down to the basics simple direct efficient wing chun very pugillistic hitting at every chance not playing chi sao games and i think that could make some moves in mma. just my crazy idea of course but i believe it could....

^^ thanks you know who you are

[Jam_master]

Bottomline is that both MMA and WC can benifit greatly from each other. Most MMA and BJJ people, from a WC stand point, have lousy hands period! (Haven't seen not one MMA or BJJ guy ever cover their face upon entry). And WC people need to address grappling more in their Kwoon (either to administer, or to counter agains, or both). As good as some WC guys may be, accidents do happen. (You can be faked into a takedown, you can slip and fall, your chain punching may even be rendered ineffective agains someone who can take it cause he's built solid or he's on the juice!, you can get tired, you can get careles, etc...).

In any case, we must all be able to adopt to change, and constantly familiarize ourseles with all possible counters and different approaches others will have and can offer so we as martial artist can be better prepared in any given situation.

Remember too that WC is more of a method, a concept, a scientific approach to fighting rather than a fixed and rigid style. WC theories and methods can be applied to almost any other system for added efficiency. IMO, It's the universal donor of all martial arts! LOL!!

[unkokusai]

Great wrestlers that know how to throw hands and have basic submission knowledge will rule the future.

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These words should be repeated as often as possible.