What is the point of Tao Lu? (aka forms, kata, etc.)

[Fu-Pow]

Just wondering what people think about this.

[MasterKiller]

My take is that Tao Lu are basically combat-specific bodyweight exercise routines. Before there were jump ropes and HIIT routines, doing forms was a pretty good way to develop flexibility, elevate cardio, and build kinesthetic awareness.

But exercise science has become more efficient and forms work is antiquated.

Now, the value of forms is merely to pass on the flavor of the style.

Everyone knows that to use your forms in a live setting, you have to break them down and drill individual movements. If that's the case, why not start with the individual movements in the first place? You'd eliminate two (or more) years of training time right off the bat.

[David Jamieson]

you do start with individual movements. You can't learn a form all at once and the rule of thumb is that you get each movement right before moving on to another.

sometimes, it is taught taht the sequence be given and then refined. This is ok to, and is more interesting for the student than being corrected however many times before moving on.

The nature of the form to string together combinations and moves into form makes it no less efficient than anything else out there.

What is it that is more efficient and makes forms inadequate mk?

forms are part of training, but certainly not all, you do have to extrapolate, you do have to drill material taken from within teh form, you do have to do force feedback and resistance training to make any of it work and it all get's drawn out of form.

form is a teaching method and does indeed include and show flavour of a given style. It could be said that they are a more robust transimission method than one or two selections from another method that doesn't use form. Which is ok too.

purpose wise, they develop co-ordination and strength , timing etc etc. Although I would admit I still see a lot of people play them mechanically and with not a lot of those three things. But that's ok, with time and effort, they should by all rights come troi understand the form better and take it out of the pattern dancing realm and into the applicable parts of it.

That's if they want to bother with the fight aspect of ma which is another cookie altogether.

why do you ask fu pow? at a dark place in your training?

[SPJ]

Kata is to be taken apart and then put back pieces by pieces.

Kata is just another form of practice and not the only practice.

so the point of kata is that it is just a collection of many individual moves in a sequence.

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[Banjos_dad]

i always imagined that forms developed back in the days when the knowledge of reading and writing were reserved mainly for the wealthiest or most influential people.... i imagine people connecting the techniques from their art into a sequence as a way of cataloging those moves in a way that could be memorized and performed in a standardized sequence.

[SPJ]

Yes.

There are names and songs/poems/classics associated with moves and kata.

oral transmission or Kuo Jue;

some are considered "secrets" not to be written down.

[Fu-Pow]

you do start with individual movements. You can't learn a form all at once and the rule of thumb is that you get each movement right before moving on to another.

But you're still using the form as a kind of "road map" for teaching kung fu. As if learning the form is the ultimate when in fact its just another training tool.

why do you ask fu pow? at a dark place in your training?

Haha...you could say that. I think Coach Ross used the best metaphor when he said kung fu training is like a really powerful bullet that doesn't have a gun ie a delivery system. Lately I've been working on the delivery system by sparring and I realize that forms don't do you a lot of good. It's the basics and short combos that are most important.

[SevenStar]

Haha...you could say that. I think Coach Ross used the best metaphor when he said kung fu training is like a really powerful bullet that doesn't have a gun ie a delivery system. Lately I've been working on the delivery system by sparring and I realize that forms don't do you a lot of good. It's the basics and short combos that are most important.

**** - Never thought I'd hear that outta you.

[David Jamieson]

actually spj's list is how cma is practiced more or less.

basics / strength and power development (basics+forms+weight+devices)/ speed and accuracy development (single tech practice+drills+pad practice)/ force feedback (drills+devices+pad work+bag work+sparring)/ free fighting (self explanatory) / mental-physical binding aspect (qigong/neigong/meditations etc etc)

If you don't do forms that is totally fine. Doesn't mean in teh least that it's more efficient or effective though. It's just another way of doing...or not doing something.

[Fu-Pow]

My take is that Tao Lu are basically combat-specific bodyweight exercise routines.

What about the techniques that the forms contain?

Before there were jump ropes and HIIT routines, doing forms was a pretty good way to develop flexibility, elevate cardio, and build kinesthetic awareness.

So how is jump roping and HIIT better than doing forms?

But exercise science has become more efficient and forms work is antiquated.

Now, the value of forms is merely to pass on the flavor of the style.

What do you mean by flavor?

Everyone knows that to use your forms in a live setting, you have to break them down and drill individual movements. If that's the case, why not start with the individual movements in the first place? You'd eliminate two (or more) years of training time right off the bat.

Totally agree. However, in modern times I think that most people associate kung fu with the forms. So how do we not teach forms and yet retain students? They'll think you're holding out on them.