Bagua / Xingyi / Taiji vs. Centerline Systems

[count]

Somehow it seems like maybe bagua or taiji as they are taught are not effective martial arts.

Perhaps Maoshan knows differently, but it seems like most of the people who say they fight with bagua or taiji when they actually go to fight just revert to regular kickboxing techniques. Why is that?

You answered your own question. even if Maoshan already answered it. But it's not just how you're taught, it's how you train too.

Kind of silly to see this thread degenerate so quickly. From centerline theory to why can't bagua dominate the MMA scene in 12 steps.

Sure bagua uses centerline theory. But we try to think of it as 360 degrees. Try walking the circle and think about it for a while.

[SPJ]

Count;

Just want to say hi and you have a very nice website.



Response to the thread.

Centerline of Wing Chun.

The buddha sits in your heart. Your hands are protecting the heart. Your hands are from the center line. Everything is pushed outside of your shoulder line.

This is the main defense theory of WC.

while you push outward the opponent's arms, you also gain access to his inside.

It is too big a topic to lump Tai Chi, Ba Gua and Xing yi al together.

If you think WC covers the square in front of your chest and abdomen by positioning your hands in the centerline first.

Xing Yi has square, too. or all styles have centerline strategy, too.

San Ti posture, cover your vital area: chest and abdomen, including groin and knee etc.

For example, a typical posture of Xing Yi:

The forward hand is up in the "centerline" and not the midline of your chest/abdomen where Tang Zhong Xue lies.

There are several vital acupuncture points in the midline of the face, neck, chest and abdomen.

the rear hand is close to the forward hand's elbow. The two hands may switch roles and places. Your vital areas are covered.

This is similar to Zuan Quan posture.

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[RiceWine]

er...hi ya'll here's my two cents

bagua, yin style anyways, has center line attack vectors.

but it has various other vectors also. some hidden some open.

None of that really seems to matter really. They're kinda just theories until applied.

but you are right, bagua doesn't seem to be very effective and people resort back to kickboxing.

two reasons
1. lack of training
2. bagua is a style that kinda is formed around modular concepts of attack. Therefore, their natural movements might create a personal style of bagua that looks similar to kickboxing, although I doubt it.

[jack]

In the past, ba gua don’t use the term “bridge”. “Bridge” is widely used by southern styles. Perhaps ba gua adopted it at later stage.

[RiceWine]

In the past, ba gua don’t use the term “bridge”. “Bridge” is widely used by southern styles. Perhaps ba gua adopted it at later stage.

Iono if the word is there or not, but the concept is in there. Basic dragon in bagua has bridge. A key conponent is bridge or making sure all the body's alignments are correct to maximize body.

[blackmantis]

Hi everyone,

I practise Heibei Xingyiquan and Chen Ting Hua's Baguazhang. In my school of Xingyi, three of the five elements are performed along the centreline. Bagua on the other hand seems to change so fluidly that there is no real centreline.

I often spar with a friend who practises Leung Ting's Wing Tsun. As this school trains in striking down the centre, I have been forced to be able to deal with such attacks. I find that Xingyi's water element is particularly effective for nullifying the forward-moving punches. Xingyi's metal element and monkey palm is also great for chain punches.

An alternative Bagua method that I use to defend against WT is the drilling techniques (heaven palm type idea) and soft palm blocking from the waist.

What do you Bagua/Xingyi/Taiji guys use against centreline and external styles like Wing Tsun?

Thanks!

S

[Mo Ling]

in a good example, (which is often very hard to find) Chen Taijiquan for example is certainly a "centerline system". Understanding and mastery of many centerlines of the body and of the opponents body is of utmost importance. Unfortunately this level of instruction and skill is really.. reallly hard to find.

[count]

in a good example, (which is often very hard to find) Chen Taijiquan for example is certainly a "centerline system". Understanding and mastery of many centerlines of the body and of the opponents body is of utmost importance. Unfortunately this level of instruction and skill is really.. reallly hard to find.

I admit, good examples are hard to find, since it's such a general statement that systems are one thing or another or both. But wouldn't you agree that Chen tai chi is more of a sideways fighting system than say, Hsing-I? Or are you agreeing that centerline concept is more complex in bagua, Hsing-I or tai chi, than just a 2 dimensional line that runs up and down your opponents body?

[RiceWine]

Hi everyone,

I practise Heibei Xingyiquan and Chen Ting Hua's Baguazhang. In my school of Xingyi, three of the five elements are performed along the centreline. Bagua on the other hand seems to change so fluidly that there is no real centreline.

I often spar with a friend who practises Leung Ting's Wing Tsun. As this school trains in striking down the centre, I have been forced to be able to deal with such attacks. I find that Xingyi's water element is particularly effective for nullifying the forward-moving punches. Xingyi's metal element and monkey palm is also great for chain punches.

An alternative Bagua method that I use to defend against WT is the drilling techniques (heaven palm type idea) and soft palm blocking from the waist.

What do you Bagua/Xingyi/Taiji guys use against centreline and external styles like Wing Tsun?

Thanks!

S

hm....lion raving dragon. j/k
haha =)

actually I have a question about Cheng style Ba gua.

What are the form names?

I'm starting dragon system of yin style and its like
<animal essence> <attack style> <primary animal>
<lion> <pushing> <dragon>

[Fu-Pow]

I think in Taiji the goal is not to "guard" the centerline but actually bring the opponent in toward the centerline. When he arrives the centerline is no longer there. Its like he walked straight toward a revolving door, thought that he would hit the center post that the door revolves around but found himself on the other side...still on the outside of the door.

In order to do this you have to be able to relax and actually bring your opponent closer, all the time being aware of where he is at.

In Taiji you are never really "inside" you are always outside of the center.

[NeedsPractice]

I believe people misconstrue the centerline aspect of wing chun.
yes you attack the center but not necessarily straight on it can be attacked from an angle, also chain punching is pretty basic but for some reason people really like it or like to talk about it. I practice wing chun and other things as well
I would say versus tai chi or xing yi the man with better footwork and ability of his particular style should take it, wing chun just has some things that are very easy for someone of little skill to execute and get over on somebody by over whelming them that wont work so good on somebody of moderate ability.
Why is all the footwork of the wooden man ignored? OR the evasiveness it implies, or the redirection for when trying to dive right in doesnt work.

[Mo Ling]

Count:

"But wouldn't you agree that Chen tai chi is more of a sideways fighting system than say, Hsing-I?"

I dont know how to answer that because I am not really well versed enough in the workings of Xingyiquan to compare. Further, Taijiquan that I trained has sideways, straight, round, and all kinds of others methods of approach/attack. It depends on skill and preference of course.

"...Or are you agreeing that centerline concept is more complex in bagua, Hsing-I or tai chi, than just a 2 dimensional line that runs up and down your opponents body?"

Again, hard to compare without enough knowledge, I was not clear that this was the limit of the cneterline idea in something like wingchun?? If so, well yes Taijiquan centerline ideology is very complex. Basically Taijiquan, you guard, change, manipulate, fake, and attack many different levels, and "dimension" centerline. its plain physics really regarding centerline. I dont know that "centerline systems" are all that simple, but if they are, the simple ones are quite important to master as well in Taijiquan. This is why, regardless of which version of centerline we discuss, in my experience Taijiquan is still a very obvious and intended "centerline system".

[maoshan]

Peace All

After reading these post and giving it some thought, I realized that the centerline doesn’t apply to bagua in the same sense as you guys are seeing it. Ba-Gua attacks the side and back doors from our center. Using Xing-I as an example, it’s strikes are lined up with the nose or heart depending on the teacher, as they plow through you.
Ba-Gua’s core posture doesn’t line up that way at all. Power is derived from the waist while moving. The Yin style piercing palm moves through the center, but that’s with a foreward attack.
Moving makes the difference. On a straight line, Xing-I’s nose, foot and strike fall on the centerline as ya’ll call it. The same applies to Yin style Ba-Gua. Cheng style’s turning waist doesn’t allow for a standard centerline because it’s always changing.

(In the past, ba gua don’t use the term “bridge”. “Bridge” is widely used by southern styles. Perhaps ba gua adopted it at later stage.)

Both Ba-Gua and Xing-I have the Bridge. The term Might be southern, but this method has always been apart of these arts. How else can you push an opponent and remain relaxed?

I’ve got more to write, but I’ve got to go.

Until next time

Peace

Maoshan