Fearless

[Faruq]

I agree cuz I saw a lot of Samurai documentaries at the end of the 70's/beginning of the 80's, and those guys were so fast you'd just see them spin, hear that scream, and then heads, arms and torsos would start falling and blood would be spewing all over like fountains! LOL! I never saw anything like that in the hundreds of kung fu documentaries put out by the Shaw brothers! What about the Zatoichi documentary series! LOL!

[jigahus]

I agree cuz I saw a lot of Samurai documentaries at the end of the 70's/beginning of the 80's, and those guys were so fast you'd just see them spin, hear that scream, and then heads, arms and torsos would start falling and blood would be spewing all over like fountains! LOL! I never saw anything like that in the hundreds of kung fu documentaries put out by the Shaw brothers! What about the Zatoichi documentary series! LOL!

1 word, 1 name....Azumi...lol

[GeneChing]

Sorry for the stripper reference, got confused which Fearless thread I was on. In my defence, monks, ninjettes, & strippers sell magazines. Ok, that's not totally true either. I have no defence. It's a fair cop, but society is to blame.

To quickly step back OT, I'm glad to see Fearless elicited some nice discussions about the state of MA films today.

Samurai Jack, I totally hear ya about that Ronny Yu interview. With both that piece, and the interview with Jet, the first thing I went after was the whole "Final Martial Arts Epic" sales pitch. Obviously, with Rogue in the can and the Jackie/Jet project looming, that's a crock. Once I let them explain themselves - and IMO both explainations were attempts to spin doctor the tag line - I felt I had to give them an 'out'. But as for the 'stripper pole' move, perhaps that's why it bothered me. The stand up fight choreography was nice - Jet's still got great precision - so whenever the stripper pole appeared, it really clashed. I think they could have done without that.

I'm a huge fan of Chanbara. There's some great cross-over films of kung fu vs. samurai. Probably one of the most amusing pitted Zatoichi vs. the One-Armed Swordsman.

[Li Kao]

I'm with you on the "stripper pole" moves in Fearless Gene. Even in the crazy world of wire-fu, some moves seem more plausible than others, and those really stuck out as being ridiculous. Granted, you have to suspend reality when watching a kung fu movie, but the whole way he seemed to stop his momentum and swing around like that was too much of a leap in physics.

Ya know, I always loved those kung fu vs. samurai cross-over movies too. Zatoichi vs. The One Armed Swordsman was indeed a classic -- kind of like the Godzilla vs. King Kong of sword films. Some other favorites of this subgenre are Duel to the Death -- which also featured leaping ninjas, crazy Shaolin monks, and some of the most overdone but cool sword-drawing sound effects, and one of my all time favorites, Shaolin Challenges Ninja with Gordon Liu, because of the great fighting and incredibly humorous plot.

[jethro]

Zhang Ziyi is *not* a throwback to old school - not by a long shot. Both her and Michelle Yeoh had their foundation training in ballet (akin to Jean Claude according to some sources). Michell earned her licks as a stunt woman hanging out with Jackie and Sammo, as did Maggie Cheung in her day. But Z is no where in their caliber. If you want old school kung fu women, check out Chen Pei Pei.

As for the old 'it's not real fighting' bit about movies, that's just silly. Of course it's not real. It's a movie. It's akin to complaining about the latest romantic film because the actor and actress aren't really in love. If you want real fighting, there's plenty of tournament stuff or even the ghastly world of happy slapping web videos. Chick flicks are to porn like kung fu flicks are to happy slapping. For me, fight choreography just needs to have tension appropriate to the plot. I enjoyed the fights in the first Matrix film, even though they weren't old school. I enjoyed the fights in Kill Bill too. I love old school kung fu films with long action sequences like the Shaw Bro stuff or Tony Jaa's new stuff. Overall, I enjoyed the fights in Fearless - I just got tired of the stripper pole.

We will have to agree to disagree. I call them throwbacks because they are not just good but even better than the old school ladies. Of course I put Yeoh ahead of Ziyi because, well, she just looks better on screen, but Ziyi made a huge impression on me in CTHDragon and Hero that instantly put her as one of my favorites. I wish we had more women in the industry to compare her to.

I'm with you on the "stripper pole" moves in Fearless Gene. Even in the crazy world of wire-fu, some moves seem more plausible than others, and those really stuck out as being ridiculous. Granted, you have to suspend reality when watching a kung fu movie, but the whole way he seemed to stop his momentum and swing around like that was too much of a leap in physics.

Ya know, I always loved those kung fu vs. samurai cross-over movies too. Zatoichi vs. The One Armed Swordsman was indeed a classic -- kind of like the Godzilla vs. King Kong of sword films. Some other favorites of this subgenre are Duel to the Death -- which also featured leaping ninjas, crazy Shaolin monks, and some of the most overdone but cool sword-drawing sound effects, and one of my all time favorites, Shaolin Challenges Ninja with Gordon Liu, because of the great fighting and incredibly humorous plot.

I have seen the first 8 Zatoichi episodes. Oh man I can't wait to see him against Jimmy Wang Yu. And the Duel To the Death sword unsheathing is the reason that I got surround sound.

BTW-ever notice how a sword doens't even make a sound when leavign the sheathe?



AND ALL OF YOU-what is your problem with the stripper pole? I still thought that it was a great fight, not as good as a couple others but come on!

[Samurai Jack]

Ziyi Zhang on the stripper pole... hmmmmm... I may have to reconsider my position on this issue after all!

[Li Kao]

We will have to agree to disagree. I call them throwbacks because they are not just good but even better than the old school ladies. Of course I put Yeoh ahead of Ziyi because, well, she just looks better on screen, but Ziyi made a huge impression on me in CTHDragon and Hero that instantly put her as one of my favorites. I wish we had more women in the industry to compare her to.

I kind of feel the same way as Gene about Zhang Ziyi -- and just for the record, I like Zhang Ziyi alot and think she's a great actress. But the difference between her and the "old school" actresses just comes down to their training. Zhang Ziyi is gifted physically and performs gracefully enough, but since her training is primarily in dance/ballet, she just doesn't look as convincing in fight scenes. Also, most of her fight sequences in CTHD and Hero were heavily wire-fu (I admit that i really like both of those movies and the fight scenes). Cheng Pei Pei and Polly Shang Kwan were the first major actresses to pave the way for women as stars in kung fu cinema, but there were certainly others of similiar caliber who came after them. Even though she was mostly relegated to supporting roles, Yukari Oshima comes to mind. She trained in goju ryu karate and spent time in Sonny Chiba's stunt school before making the leap to Hong Kong movies. She always exhibited a fierce fighting spirit in her movies and also did her own stunts. My personal favorite of the old school actresses was Golden Harvest star Angelo Mao. She trained at a Taiwan opera school at a very young age ala Jacky Chan. I think what Gene was trying to convey was that Zhang Ziyi just doesn't have the same pedigree as some of her predecessors.

AND ALL OF YOU-what is your problem with the stripper pole? I still thought that it was a great fight, not as good as a couple others but come on!

I know I'm overanalyzing this, but basically I think it comes down to physics. We are used to seeing people jump or leap to impossible heights, so that is pretty commonplace, but generally, in a fight scene where someone is either struck or is reeling/falling backwards, they either a) fall down or slam into a wall/object or b)come to a stop after using their feet to provide friction -- kind of like skidding backwards. In the "stripper pole" sequences, Jet is moving backwards seeming out of control and ends up pivoting and changing his momentum forward -- it just kind of sticks out as being really implausible, especially the one on the leitai. Overall, I still liked the fight scenes in Fearless, though I don't think they are among Jet's best. I mainly liked the message the movie conveyed.

[Li Kao]

And I'm getting tired by Yuan's Matrix slow-down-the-blow cinematography technique. In my book, Yuan has lost the title of top martial arts choreographer to Jaa and to Donnie Yen.

I think part of the problem is that Yuen Woo Ping's choreagraphy has become aped too much and is becoming too familiar. Look at how the technique from Trinity in the Matrix, where she leaps into the air in slow motion, shot is frozen, and then goes back to regular speed has shown up in movies like Charlie's Angels and many others. And the whole "bullet time" technique has been lampooned in comedies like Deuce Bigalow and Kung Pow (remember the cow scene?) The success of CTHD and the Matrix movies has caused alot of Yuen's bread-and-butter techniques to be adopted by all kinds of Hollywood action sequences and it's become a bit overexposed, imho. I still have the upmost respect for Woo Ping but I am also hoping to see some new style of choreagraphy to emerge -- Tony Jaa has certainly looked good thusfar, I just think he needs to start doing better scripts. Donnie Yen and Cory Yuen are still putting out good stuff too. I guess we'll have to wait and see how the genre progresses ...

[Faruq]

Shaolin VS Ninja! OMG! I loved that one, especially the Japanese wife, and how Chinese martial arts prevailed at the end like in real life! The wife was cute, and had skillz!!! Why can't I find a female like that? None of the females I meet can understand me sticking with a regimen, or stand the smell of Tit Da Jow. They just complain that I smell like syrup and curry all the time! Darnit!

Ya know, I always loved those kung fu vs. samurai cross-over movies too. Zatoichi vs. The One Armed Swordsman was indeed a classic -- kind of like the Godzilla vs. King Kong of sword films. Some other favorites of this subgenre are Duel to the Death -- which also featured leaping ninjas, crazy Shaolin monks, and some of the most overdone but cool sword-drawing sound effects, and one of my all time favorites, Shaolin Challenges Ninja with Gordon Liu, because of the great fighting and incredibly humorous plot.

[GeneChing]

I can't but grin thinking about that film.

I don't mind if choreography bends physics. In fact, I rather enjoyed he cartoon physics of Kung Fu Hustle, but that was in context of that film. With Fearless, which was billing itself as Jet Li's 'final martial arts epic' and then qualifying that (fudging it really) to accomodate Rogue, I was looking forward to something more 'old school'. And there were some fine fights, I just felt they were sullied by the stripper pole moves.

I'm not a big fan of Z's work in the martial arts. She's graceful, but her postures always seem too frail to be beleiveable, kind of like Van Damme - pretty, but not 'old school' - too much focus on the pretty, perhaps. For me, there are plenty of other female actresses that have paid their dues in the martial arts genre, so when everyone was gushing about Z, I was rather non-plussed. In contrast, I love Z's work in non-martial arts films. She was great in Road Home.

[Helena Handbask]

In order to ensure that these types of movies will continue to be released in America, it's very important that ticket sales are high. Crouching Tiger was a huge success, but the Promise and House of Flying Daggers both were box office bombs. If Fearless flops, then there will be little incentive to release these types of movies in the US.

You vote with your dollars at the movies. Just something to think about.

The B

Didn't care for Fearless, sorry

[Wu-Tan-Nan]

I was just wondering if anyone knew what kind of style the guy (cant remeber who) that Jet Li fought on that high latform used??

[jethro]

I can't but grin thinking about that film.

I don't mind if choreography bends physics. In fact, I rather enjoyed he cartoon physics of Kung Fu Hustle, but that was in context of that film. With Fearless, which was billing itself as Jet Li's 'final martial arts epic' and then qualifying that (fudging it really) to accomodate Rogue, I was looking forward to something more 'old school'. And there were some fine fights, I just felt they were sullied by the stripper pole moves.

I'm not a big fan of Z's work in the martial arts. She's graceful, but her postures always seem too frail to be beleiveable, kind of like Van Damme - pretty, but not 'old school' - too much focus on the pretty, perhaps. For me, there are plenty of other female actresses that have paid their dues in the martial arts genre, so when everyone was gushing about Z, I was rather non-plussed. In contrast, I love Z's work in non-martial arts films. She was great in Road Home.

Well, at least we are both Van Damme Haters, that makes me feel better. For some reason, that bar scene just stole the show for me in CTHD. EVer since then it just seems any kung fu she does is good.

BTW-does Van Damme have any better moves than that one where he throws the guy up against the ropes and then sticks his leg out hoping the other guy runs into it?

[Mr Punch]

You know, I thought a lot about that particular scene because I've practiced sword both Japanese and Chinese style. If the Chinese fencer kept his weapon tip pointing at the japanese swordsman and used his Jian as it was designed to be used, then you would have seen a much shorter fight in my opinion because the Katana (primarily a cutting weapon) would only have had to miss once for the jian to flick in and penetrate. On the other hand, with Jet Li swinging his jian all over the place, actually chopping with it (!), the katana would have one out because the jian *is not designed to be used that way*.

Efficent, to the point technique will always beat frilly wasted motion. Wouldn't you agree? Still, I know it's wishful thinking.

Yeah, I agree with the to-the-point vs the flowery, and I agree that Jet Li's movements were flowery... but before you said that Nakamura's movements didn't look Japanese and I thought they did. Now you've changed to criticising Li's movements which is fine. I know I know, it's KFMWORLD, what do I expect, consistency?!

Shaolin VS Ninja! OMG! I loved that one, especially the Japanese wife, and how Chinese martial arts prevailed at the end like in real life! The wife was cute, and had skillz!!! Why can't I find a female like that?

Well, hate to burst your bubble but most the Japanese MAists I've met over here have been built like gorillas with cauliflower ears and faces that look like they've been hit with a shovel. Smashing personalities though! OK, so some of the kendo and kyudo ones are cute, and the naginata ones are the hottest but probably the snottiest.

Tit Da Jow.

Think you're rubbing that in the wrong place! You're supposed to rub dit on yourself you know!

[omarthefish]

rofl in tears @ the idea that there is anything "old school" at all about Zhang Ziyi. She is as "new school" as it gets. No MA background, no historical MA stuff displayed in anything she has ever done, noted for excessive wirework.....CTHD as an example of OLD SCHOOL style!?! Dude, Zhang Ziyi, CTHD and Hero are old school like Eminem.

How old are you? Like twelve?

pffft...