Fearless

[Flying-Monkey]

Yeah, but his sword work wasn't Japanese by a long shot. Anyhow, my favorite martial arts movies tend to be Japanese. Toshiro Mifune always did real martial arts, and he could act too. It's a real shame we don't see work of his caliber in Chinese films. Imagine the impact it would have for American audiences to see what Chinese Martial Arts really look like. Personally, I think we're ready for it, but by supporting more of the same poor quality films that we've been shown for the last 20 years... well it dosen't take a business proffessor to figure out that they'll keep selling us that stuff.

I agree with Jack

[Faruq]

Hey, someone just lent me a copy of Fearless and it's great. It's not in Cantonese or Mandarin (actually it's in Spanish with the ceceo and everything), so it's probably missing parts, but the parts I've seen so far are spectacular.

Though movie fighting's fake, that flashy stuff is what gets a lot of people into gong fu in the first place, where some actually find the real thing. So I at least think there's something to be said for gong fu movies.

I wonder if Jet Li is a Southerner or a Northerner. Also, this took place in Shanghai during the days of the Qing Bang. As powerful as they were, I wonder why they weren't mentioned in the movie. I thought they pervaded every aspect of life in Shanghai, so I'm curious. I guess as some people are Mafia movie fans and know alll about Al Capone or something like that, I'm kind of curious about the Green Gang and that whole thing. Well to each, his own, right?

[jethro]

Hey, someone just lent me a copy of Fearless and it's great. It's not in Cantonese or Mandarin (actually it's in Spanish with the ceceo and everything), so it's probably missing parts, but the parts I've seen so far are spectacular.

Though movie fighting's fake, that flashy stuff is what gets a lot of people into gong fu in the first place, where some actually find the real thing. So I at least think there's something to be said for gong fu movies.

I wonder if Jet Li is a Southerner or a Northerner. Also, this took place in Shanghai during the days of the Qing Bang. As powerful as they were, I wonder why they weren't mentioned in the movie. I thought they pervaded every aspect of life in Shanghai, so I'm curious. I guess as some people are Mob movie fans and know alll about Al Capone or something like that, I'm kind of curious about the Green Gang that whole thing. Well to each, his own, right?

Good questions. It is not exactly as easy to pick up on kung fu movies being American.

Obviously movie martial arts are different then the real thing. If you don't like it, you don't like it. Definitely to each his own. It is nice to see a movie like Fearless that really raises the bar in action movies overall. Personally, I put this movie at least equal to Fist of Legend.

[jethro]

Yeah, that sword scene really got to me. I burst out a couple of times accidentally. I was really trying to be quiet. The end of that movie did shut me up though

[GeneChing]

Zhang Ziyi is *not* a throwback to old school - not by a long shot. Both her and Michelle Yeoh had their foundation training in ballet (akin to Jean Claude according to some sources). Michell earned her licks as a stunt woman hanging out with Jackie and Sammo, as did Maggie Cheung in her day. But Z is no where in their caliber. If you want old school kung fu women, check out Chen Pei Pei.

As for the old 'it's not real fighting' bit about movies, that's just silly. Of course it's not real. It's a movie. It's akin to complaining about the latest romantic film because the actor and actress aren't really in love. If you want real fighting, there's plenty of tournament stuff or even the ghastly world of happy slapping web videos. Chick flicks are to porn like kung fu flicks are to happy slapping. For me, fight choreography just needs to have tension appropriate to the plot. I enjoyed the fights in the first Matrix film, even though they weren't old school. I enjoyed the fights in Kill Bill too. I love old school kung fu films with long action sequences like the Shaw Bro stuff or Tony Jaa's new stuff. Overall, I enjoyed the fights in Fearless - I just got tired of the stripper pole.

[GeneChing]

...That's one reason why I'm pushing seeing Fearless in the theater. I so miss seeing those classic Shaw Bros etc. back in the day in S.F. Chinatown, where people would just go nuts in the theater. I'd hate to see a day when martial arts films are in such decline that they are only getting shown on import DVD.

You know, at the old Great Star Theater in S.F. where I saw most of those movies, they had to have this annoying red light illuminating the audience at all times so a video camera could see who started the fights. That was back in the day when video cameras were the size of two or three cinder blocks. The snack bar sold dry squid and you often came back with flea bites from the seats. But man, those films in that old theater, what a treat! I would go every other week. I just can't find that experience in the theaters today...

[Faruq]

Stipper pole?

Zhang Ziyi is *not* a throwback to old school - not by a long shot. Both her and Michelle Yeoh had their foundation training in ballet (akin to Jean Claude according to some sources). Michell earned her licks as a stunt woman hanging out with Jackie and Sammo, as did Maggie Cheung in her day. But Z is no where in their caliber. If you want old school kung fu women, check out Chen Pei Pei.

As for the old 'it's not real fighting' bit about movies, that's just silly. Of course it's not real. It's a movie. It's akin to complaining about the latest romantic film because the actor and actress aren't really in love. If you want real fighting, there's plenty of tournament stuff or even the ghastly world of happy slapping web videos. Chick flicks are to porn like kung fu flicks are to happy slapping. For me, fight choreography just needs to have tension appropriate to the plot. I enjoyed the fights in the first Matrix film, even though they weren't old school. I enjoyed the fights in Kill Bill too. I love old school kung fu films with long action sequences like the Shaw Bro stuff or Tony Jaa's new stuff. Overall, I enjoyed the fights in Fearless - I just got tired of the stripper pole.

[jigahus]

Stipper pole?

I would like to see this please.

[The Xia]

Yuen Woo Ping relied heavily upon what I'm going to call the 'stripper pole' move where someone gets knocked off something, like the leitai or out of the ring or off some precipice and then swings around using some impossible physics to deliver a riposte.

Gene manages to relate everything to monks, ninjettes, or strippers.

[Samurai Jack]

Please don't misunderstand, my argument is *not* that the fights must be real, but that the martial arts portrayed should look like something you could actually walk into a real kwoon/wushuguan/dojo/dojang and see being practiced. That's all.

I suppose the reason I climbed up on the soap box in the first place is that I took exception to the interviews on the ezine where Ronny Yu says that this movie isn't another Wuxia film, and that now it's real martial arts. Unfortunately I read Ronny Yu's interview before seeing the movie, and was under the impression that we had another "Pushing Hands" coming out. Finally a CMA movie that utilized actual MiZhong Chuan (or any traditional art) and focused on a story! I was so excited to find out Hollywood was finally portraying CMA as it is actually practiced!

Instead I found out that Ronny Yu dosen't know what traditional martial arts are.

There are people who will read that interview and think, "Wow! That's what kungfu looks like. Ronny Yu and Jet Li said so!"

There are others who will think, "Those kungfu people are so dumb! Nobody fights like that!"

Niether impression is a good one for CMA as a whole.

The thread started under the premise that we should support this film because if we didn't, others like it would not be released here in the U.S. If ya'll are happy with the content of these movies, by all means keep watching. That's all the support the industry needs.

I, for one, would like to see a change. That's all I'm saying.

[SifuAbel]

I don't agree that there was no villian in this movie. It was the villan within. The villany of obsession. Yuan was the hero and the anti-hero at the same time. His brash compulsions, coupled with a healthy(?) dose of alcohol, drove him into a world of pettiness and shallow desires. His "apearances" and his "status" was all that mattered. He was childish; as a fighter, friend, parent. His breaking point was a harsh one. He had never killed before. Until then, it was all a game. And in the end it was for nothing at all. Its a hard way to grow up. He lost it all with one hasty descision.

The "wind" and "planting" sceens were very significant.

I thought the movie was a bit hurried. They needed to show more depth and time. Especially with moon and grandma. Their downhome country wisdom was exactly what he needed. This needed to be more like "last samurai" with the redemption process. Not just a quick shave and a haircut.

If there is a messege in this film its, "wake up, grow up, live for something thats greater than your self, respect life for all its fragility, take responsibilty for your actions and for your world, compasion and patience reveals the truth."

[jethro]

Ya see Jack, you just explained why you didn't like it. I remember when I picked up Infernal Affairs and saw that girl with the gun on the cover. I was so excited about her, maybe that was why I was let down.

[Mr Punch]

Heck-- it took about 6 films before Wesley could satisfactorly even do movie-fu. His first couple of 'fight' movies stunk. He got passible in the Stallone/Bullock movie and then he came out swinging in Blade--- but before that...

He's always been able to move. i think you can blame his directors for poor fight scenes.

The fight scenes in Fearless were done well and the wire work was transparent. Nobody flew- they pretty much kept to the laws of gravity with the big exception being the fight against the American wrestler.

Pish! What about all that anti-gravitional back-flipping bollocks on top of the unfeasibly large Tolkienesque lei-tai? Not to mention the getting on to it in the first place! And sure the gravity worked well when his opponent fell off that lei-tai, but not well enough to kill him after falling the ten metres or so onto his head. Absolute crap!

BTW Jack, I think Shido Nakamura does MA too, and personally I thought some of his stuff was very Japanesey, but sloppified up a bit to make it look a bit more realistic. Don't forget, coming from aiki, that though aiki sword tends to be very precise, but even in a precise art like iaido after certain levels you're supposed to loosen up and show your feeling but the cuts are very extravagant: taken to the extreme of elbow extension. Plus, against the 'unusual' (to the Japanese) sword movements of the Chinese Japanese arts will not look so neat.

Mifune was cool. As is Ken Takakura - another MAist.

[Samurai Jack]

Plus, against the 'unusual' (to the Japanese) sword movements of the Chinese Japanese arts will not look so neat.

You know, I thought a lot about that particular scene because I've practiced sword both Japanese and Chinese style. If the Chinese fencer kept his weapon tip pointing at the japanese swordsman and used his Jian as it was designed to be used, then you would have seen a much shorter fight in my opinion because the Katana (primarily a cutting weapon) would only have had to miss once for the jian to flick in and penetrate. On the other hand, with Jet Li swinging his jian all over the place, actually chopping with it (!), the katana would have one out because the jian *is not designed to be used that way*.

Efficent, to the point technique will always beat frilly wasted motion. Wouldn't you agree? Still, I know it's wishful thinking.

But if nobody has seen the film Pushing Hands, I cannot recommend it highly enough. The few fight scenes contain real Tai Chi chuan applications, and it is truly beautiful to see.

Check it out.

[Flying-Monkey]

You know, I thought a lot about that particular scene because I've practiced sword both Japanese and Chinese style. If the Chinese fencer kept his weapon tip pointing at the japanese swordsman and used his Jian as it was designed to be used, then you would have seen a much shorter fight in my opinion because the Katana (primarily a cutting weapon) would only have had to miss once for the jian to flick in and penetrate. On the other hand, with Jet Li swinging his jian all over the place, actually chopping with it (!), the katana would have one out because the jian *is not designed to be used that way*.

Efficent, to the point technique will always beat frilly wasted motion. Wouldn't you agree? Still, I know it's wishful thinking.

But if nobody has seen the film Pushing Hands, I cannot recommend it highly enough. The few fight scenes contain real Tai Chi chuan applications, and it is truly beautiful to see.

Check it out.

I think that the Japanese swordman would win.