f Cung Le is successful in MMA, what effects on CMA will his success have?

[Shaolindynasty]

By definition an art is tradtitional if it is passed from one person to another.

A style could have been created in the 1980's but if it is passed to the next generation it is then traditional.

Training methods or willingness to compete don't enter into the picture.

[Shaolinlueb]

wait, wait, wait...
Did you just say that stand up lacks in MMA? Have you watched a Wanderlei Silva fight? I could swore that Pride was MMA... I could swore he beats the tar out of his opponents standing up, not submits them.

I mean, I could be wrong....

seem i dont see pride in the same lime light as ufc. pride is so much better. lol but yeah it is um mma i guess.

[Shaolinlueb]

The early UFC's are flawed at best. I'm not saying they were fixed, but Rorion Gacie did hand pick the contestants. He wanted "pure stylists" to prove his point and the promotion company then added in BS to hype the show... one thing can definitely be said, they did NOT pick the best well rounded fighters they could find...

From my point of view, UFC proved a few basic CMA concepts, ie that you shouldn't be either a striker or a grappler, you need both. Sure did prove how effective elbows and head butts were. And, yes, showed many in TMA that they were not the deadly people they thought they were

shoot. i hate agreeing with coach ross and dont like to seem like a butt kisser, but pretty much is a good arguement. and with the other statement up top you made is good too.

[metsubushi]

what it existed as is irrelevant. it wasn't muay thai. now, the older versions - muay chaiya, muay lon lon, etc. yeah, I would consider them traditional. but they were not muay thai. muay thai emerged in the 1920's.

So did Shotokan, and that's often seen as traditional. Same for Goju Ryu. Besides, I see no reason for the idea of tradition to be limited to a one hundred year time frame. Ideas from the 20's aren't exactly modern. Today's boxing, muay thai, wrestling, etc are just safer offshoots of older traditions that have become our traditions thanks to cultural exchange. What about freestyle wrestling in the UFC? That's old as hell. Besides, according to this The Gracies are all about tradition. BJJ isn't traditional Judo of course, but the Gracie stuff is traditional Gracie. As usual, cultural exchange sparked new traditions.

[SevenStar]

So did Shotokan, and that's often seen as traditional. Same for Goju Ryu. Besides, I see no reason for the idea of tradition to be limited to a one hundred year time frame. Ideas from the 20's aren't exactly modern. Today's boxing, muay thai, wrestling, etc are just safer offshoots of older traditions that have become our traditions thanks to cultural exchange. What about freestyle wrestling in the UFC? That's old as hell. Besides, according to this The Gracies are all about tradition. BJJ isn't traditional Judo of course, but the Gracie stuff is traditional Gracie. As usual, cultural exchange sparked new traditions.

I stated earlier that boxing and wrestling are traditional, but trained in a modern fashion and used in sportive format. that is why they are typically thrown into the modern category. you're correct about shotokan and goju - but neither of those are considered koryu styles... they technically are not traditional either. It's their training methods and characteristics that throw it into the traditional category.

as far as bjj having tradition, that doesn't make it a traditional style, IMO. And muay thai is full of tradition.

[metsubushi]

well, I dunno. I think that if I can go train BJJ in Rio De janeiro and then go train it in Milwaukee and learn pretty much the same thing, then clearly, to me anyway, someone is establishing or has established a tradition. But at the end of the day, whatever, traditional or modern doesn't really matter to me. I see opponents from either background as equally threatening. If some crazy Wing Chun guy spears my eye, I'm fu**ed. If a good ground based MMA dude catches me with a tight RNC, I'm probably fu**ed too.

[quickjab]

Harold Howard was also a karate guy and he beat the Muay Thai guy with striking. My argument is that you said the TMA's got owned and Muay Thai didn't. According to what you've listed, in UFC's 1-8 Muay Thai went 1-2. How is that SO MUCH better than TMA's? Now, I'm not a Muay Thai hater, nor am I a TMA lover. But Muay Thai DIDN'T do much better than TMA's.

[quickjab]

Also you said "Delucia vs. Baker - Delucia wins by tapout (strikes) - bjj/kung fu beat kung fu using bjj". I've never seen that fight, so explain to me how he won using BJJ by striking.

[Fallout]

We can say San shou is an effective Chinese martial art. But that doesn't make your average wing chun school bad ass. Just as your average TKD school isn't bad ass based on the success of Cung Le either.

And yes. Horald howard was a karate guy that KO'd a Muay thai guy.

[Fallout]

A more fun argument would be which style sucks more? wing chung or TKD?


I say TKD has the sparring advantage, but wing chun at least keeps their hands up..... it's a tuff call.

[SevenStar]

Harold Howard was also a karate guy and he beat the Muay Thai guy with striking. My argument is that you said the TMA's got owned and Muay Thai didn't. According to what you've listed, in UFC's 1-8 Muay Thai went 1-2. How is that SO MUCH better than TMA's? Now, I'm not a Muay Thai hater, nor am I a TMA lover. But Muay Thai DIDN'T do much better than TMA's.

and in those, there were like two thai boxers. there were more tma guys. So, overall, who was the biggest loser? Then mo showed the effectiveness of thai leg kicks and everyone flocked to it. Once again, overall, who is the biggest loser?

I'm not a TMA hater either - I started in TMA. but in this venue, muay thai and grappling are the dominant combination for a reason, obviously.

[SevenStar]

Also you said "Delucia vs. Baker - Delucia wins by tapout (strikes) - bjj/kung fu beat kung fu using bjj". I've never seen that fight, so explain to me how he won using BJJ by striking.

typo. the bjj/kung fu guy beat kung fu. unless the tapout was due to GnP...

[Merryprankster]

Wow were my comments totally taken out of context (until 7* didn't).

Green Cloud;

I'm not saying that Cung Le doesn't train Kung Fu. What I said was really simple:

He doesn't have a straight CMA background. Because of that, his winning isn't going to do anything for CMA. It's not going to do anything for CMA for two reasons:

1. His other arts have informed his fighting.

2. Anybody who is dumb enough to dismiss his San Da experience will say that he just got his hands from boxing, used his wrestling takedowns and a couple of kicks he picked up from TKD and Muay Thai, and some submissions from BJJ.

Me? I say it's all of the above. But he's not a pure CMAist and never will be.

[quickjab]

I don't think ANYBODY, even TKD'ers would refer to Cung Le as a TKD'er. My problem with the whole TMA-MMA kinda argument is that when a TMA guy cross trains and has some success, everyone dismisses their TMA background. That what will most likely happen to Cung Le.
What I hope happens is that If he is successful, it will

A) Inspire TMA dojos, dojangs and kwoons to get more involved with full contact tournaments and encourage sparring.

B) Expose San Da/San Shou to the masses. Most people I know have NEVER heard of San da. And these are people who have been into combat sports for years.

C) Help the CMA community embrace San Da. Alot of Kung Fu people, for whatever reason, don't support it.

[Green Cloud]

Thank you for responding MP, I understand your point that why I responded by saying what ever you guys say. I knew this argument is futile, but every time I try to get out they pull me back in.

Here is my point in my early years I studied several Japanese and korean styles, and yes understanding these systems does give me an atvantage.

At the end of the day I'm still a Kung Fu practitioner. For example I learned how to throw lots of fancy kicks in Tae kwon do and my kicking ability was great. I still throw pretty much the same tech except now they have a different energy and even a different porpous.

MP watch a kung fu person throw a jump cresent kick his leg is never chambered but extended with follow through. Now a Tae kwon do practioner will throw the same cresent kick but they will chamber it first like a front snap kick.

Both kicks are jump inside crescent kicks exept for the fact that they are thrown with a different flavor. I'm sorry if I am going on a tangent here but if you watch Kung Le's fight he has a certain energy that he puts into his kicks for instance when you watch his fight he throws a spining back kick and he misses. Watch his landing, he drops into a fuk fu sik ( tiger subduing stance). This is done for follow through in kung fu. In tae kwon do we rechamber immediatly after throwing a spinning back kick.

Here's my question Do you think after 20 some odd years of doing San Shou (San Da) do you think he still resembers how to move like a Tae kwon do guy?? I certainly can't, my movement is Kung Fu even though I hold black belts in both Tae Kwon Do and Jiu Jitsu, not to mention a third dan in Go Ju. If you ask me to demo these styles I couldn't fake it.


I get your point and 7*'s point, will Cung Le's debut help CMA??? probably not. But I remain hopefull, but the fact is the producers of the UFC are pro MMA. Hopefuly Cung won't sell out. 7* wants to know where the real kung fu guys are well I'm one of them and I WILL NEVER SELL OUT!!!

Unless I get a Phat contract on TV


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