WC vs. MMA link

[Knifefighter]

Dude got whipped, I kinda feel bad abou it, because he was obviously at their school, and everyone at the school was rooting for this muscle bound freak. As if he needed it, he could have whipped dude standing if he wanted. They seemed like jerks about the whole thing.

The match was held at the kung fu school. There were only a few people from John's team there. The reason you heard them doing the all the coaching was because his team was knowledgeable about what was going on on the ground. The kung fu fighter had many more people from his side there but they had very little or no experience groundfighting so they didn't know what to tell him to do. Plus the fact that they were all in shock because they had thought the fight would never get to the ground in the first place.

And I heard a snap as well.

That was his arm and that was part of the agreement to the fight. At the insistence of the "self-defense" side (they didn't believe in doing "sport", where you let the opponent tap out), the fight was to go until somebody was KO'ed, choked unconscious, or rendered incapacitated by a joint break, eye gouge, or some other technique that made a fighter unable to continue.

[Knifefighter]

The San Soo guy put of $5,000 that he could beat John in a no rules match.

I believe he also offered to put up another 5,000 for any TMA guy who could come in and beat John in the same kind of match. Funnily enough, many people said they were willing to do it, but no one did.

[Merryprankster]

KF,

Have you any information about how this affected his training methodology?

[Matrix]

...... they had very little or no experience groundfighting so they didn't know what to tell him to do. Plus the fact that they were all in shock because they had thought the fight would never get to the ground in the first place.

Dale,
This has little to do with groundfighting per se, IMO. This kung fool would have been taken to the cleaners by any decedent striker as well - including GreenCloud's cat. If you weren't there to verify this I would seriously suspect that this clip was a fake.

This was the classic example of the MA practitioner who does forms and two man drills to the exclusion of actually gearing up and doing hard free sparing and grappling.

This is not a classic example of anything, except maybe slapstick comedy. It's a joke.

LOL at being able to just hit John Marsh in the head and knock him out. Knocking John out when he is trying to take you down is like trying to knock out a charging bull..

Agreed Dale.. I don't know John Marsh, but as I said in an earlier post in this thread, the concept seems to make sense, but practical application tends to be a much different story.

[Knifefighter]

"Self Defense guys" start with their hands at their sides in personal combat? Okaaay..

I believe these guys started all or most of their techniques with their hands at their sides. The theory was to simulate a surpise attack on the street.

The point was really made; That in the first seconds as this supposedly highly trained guy essentially 'skipped/jumped' into the air as if he was about to slide into second base. Both his feet either off the ground or near to it; The guy had no ability to gain any kind of positional or offensive advantage and simply gave himself to the grappler like he suddenly fell in love with him.

Actually, the point (and one that can be very instructive for those who wish to learn from it) is not the fact of what he did, because he definitely was not trained to do this, but why... and the why is because he had never actually used his techniques for real against a skilled opponent, so all his "training" went out the door.

Sorry but IMHO this guy was not advanced by any definition of the term as far as stand up/SD/KF or anything else goes.

Not in terms of application, but I guarantee he looked as good or better doing his techniques than just about anyone I've seen doing forms, mook jong work, chi sao drills, or two man sets. He was definitely at least as skilled in doing pretty much the same types of things that have been shown on many of the clips here that people claim will be useful in realistic combat.

[Knifefighter]

KF,
Have you any information about how this affected his training methodology?

I know his arm was jacked for quite a while. Then his school closed down and was replaced by a BJJ school, of all things. I think he may train BJJ now at that school, but I'm not positive. I'm not sure if his arm ever got all the way better.

[Knifefighter]

Dale,
This has little to do with groundfighting per se, IMO. This kung fool would have been taken to the cleaners by any decedent striker as well - including GreenCloud's cat.

I agree, as long as we are considering a decent striker as someone who actually fights full contact.

This guy didn't do that and would obviously lose to someone who did.

But if you are talking about a "decent" striker who only does forms, light sparring, no grappling, and some kind of drill like chi sao, then it would be up in the air. He would have an equal chance against someone like that.

This is not a classic example of anything, except maybe slapstick comedy. It's a joke.

It's pretty much the same replay of what happened time and time again at the Gracie Academy in the 90's. Guy comes in, looks awesome doing his drills warming up, doesn't do anything remotely like his training in his fight, loses on the ground.

[chisauking]

At last, a little truth from the lips of knifefighter: It's pretty much the same replay of what happened time and time again at the Gracie Academy in the 90's. Guy comes in, looks awesome doing his drills warming up, doesn't do anything remotely like his training in his fight, loses on the ground.

Exactly what I 've been saying about all the great pretenders to wing chun. Whenever they spar or fight, they never ever resemble wing chun --- mostly western boxing with a few crazy shuffles thrown in for good measures.

Hey, knifefighter, why don't you go to all the wing chun schools and show them how it should be done? Point out how their training in gor-sau is flawed and how easy you can manipulate them.

Can't wait for the clips, man.

[Knifefighter]

Exactly what I 've been saying about all the great pretenders to wing chun. Whenever they spar or fight, they never ever resemble wing chun --- mostly western boxing with a few crazy shuffles thrown in for good measures.

What is it that make you believe that ANYONE'S sparring or fighting looks like wing chun?

[Matrix]

I believe these guys started all or most of their techniques with their hands at their sides. The theory was to simulate a surpise attack on the street..

Interesting idea I guess, but not in touch with reality. Once you're in striking range, you better be striking or get struck.

Dale, thanks for the insights. This has been quite enlightening. Now I see and have a better understanding of some of your earlier comments in other threads. If this is representative of what you've seen as a Wing Chun "fighter" then I can clearly see how you've come to the conclusions that you have.

[chisauking]

Knifefighter sez: What is it that make you believe that ANYONE'S sparring or fighting looks like wing chun?

In the same way all boxers spar and fight like grapplers

[Fajing]

I agree, as long as we are considering a decent striker as someone who actually fights full contact.
This guy didn't do that and would obviously lose to someone who did..

True Dat!!

[Yung Apprentice]

The match was held at the kung fu school. There were only a few people from John's team there. The reason you heard them doing the all the coaching was because his team was knowledgeable about what was going on on the ground. The kung fu fighter had many more people from his side there but they had very little or no experience groundfighting so they didn't know what to tell him to do. Plus the fact that they were all in shock because they had thought the fight would never get to the ground in the first place

I don't feel sorry for him now.

[Phil Redmond]

Yes, it is, but it's a lot easier to say than to execute. Some of these guys are tough dudes and can take a good shot. You better land it cleanly and with power. Don't underestimate anyone.

I've been watching some Pride stuff lately and they've changed the rules to allow knees to the head on the ground, this was previously illegal. I saw some wicked knock outs as a result.

Of course. I'm not suggesting hitting them to the top of the head. Knes and elbows can also be used. No skilled fighter will simply charge at you. He will set you up with punches/feints before the shoot. I also understand that there is no perfect technique and that there is a counter to the counter to the . . . . .
We'll be working against the shoot on Toronto this weekend.
Phil

[Liddel]

Nice crack !

The hands, the legs - it was a tie bo mess.
His Technique was "Out the window"... no... "off the planet"

His biting needs work, no attempt.

It seems he may have had no idea what was comming......
If he knew what to expect from a grappler, i suspect he may have lasted another few seconds

Stupid as it may be - he still stood up and engaged in a full contact fight and for that he deserves 'some' respect...... at least for the entertainment value.