who's the best wing chun guy

[anerlich]

A lot of you are probably not aware that BEFORE Grand Master Cheung started his first class in Corrs Lane Melbourne, he had actually opened his very school here in Auckland New Zealand.

And before that he taught in Canberra, Australia, where he trained guys such as David Crook, who still teaches KF today, though it is an eclectic style. His chi sao would cause most WC people significant probs.

Good post with that clarification. I agree pretty much with your "old school" list.

[sihing]

All of G.M early teaching was purely combative, what to do in a fight, how to destroy streetfighters, Thai Boxers, Kick Boxers etc. Grand Master Cheung did not care, it was all about "kicking their asses". Now the Art has become very commercial with many people acheiving Sifu Level after 18 months, now this is nothing but a joke.

I wish he kept this way throughout the years, he would have much more respect now than he has in the WC community (not sure if he even cares what others think ). Although I'm no longer in his association I respect him for his abilities and skills big time, but when looking at some of the things on his tapes you know something is up. I love the way you put it, "to destroy streetfighters, Thai Boxers, etc...", sounds like the Gary Lamb on the mid 70's early 80's....

James

[fiamacho]

Grand Master's sole purpose back in those days was to teach his students how the forms can and should be applied. Nowadays I have a tendency to to refer to todays Wing Chun Practioners as "The Wing Chun Latte Faithful" as lets face it all they seem to do is talk about the theoretical side of the Art while ordering Macchiato's from Starbucks.

Wing Chun has become trendy and unfortunately it has been categorised in the same way as one would categorised Wu Shu or Tai Chi. When I was fighting on the tournament scene back in the mid to late eighties, when anybody heard that they were up against a student of Grand Master Cheung, the first thing they did was make sure that the Medic was ready, because in all honesty somebody was going to get hurt. We were taught to use the Art and nothing but the Art and guess what, it worked 100% and yes we were beating groundfighters from Jiu-Jitsu etc.

Nowadays people as we say here in New Zealand are "dropping their nuts" with the mere mention of MMA, Vale Tudo or BJJ. For crying out loud if I was fighting in the street there will be no way on God's Green Earth that I will be rolling around on the ground wrestling someone.

There are moves from the First and Second Forms which can easiyl dispose of Groundfighters, we used to learn them back in the 70's and 80's and YES it was from Cheung Lineage Wing Chun. Speak to your Instructors if they cannot show you any, then yes they have copied their Sifu's and NOT understood how to use the Art at all. The lack of faith shown by Wing Chun Practioners nowadays on how to handle these situations or talking about the weaknesses in the art just goes to show that there has been way too many Cappuccino's being consumed.

There was a poster on this forum who mentioned that Wing Chun Practioners are now just glorified Kickboxers and unfortunately I would have to agree. How is anyone who has trained 18 months fulltime makes Sifu Level going to even comprehend what they are doing in Chi Sao?? When really all they have done is spent all their time memorising moves and NOT understanding them.

They are just mimics they have wasted their money copying instead of understanding, how many Wing Chun Fighters are there out on the Tournament scene nowadays??? How many are in K1? How many can testify to being World Champions? K1 Champions? Exactly people I am having a hard time trying to name anybody since the "old school" days, when you can turn up to a Tournament have 3-4 fights in a day of 3 x 3 minute Rounds, and when you looked towards the Champions podium the majority of the Champions were Wing Chun Practitioners, and these are the Open Tournaments.

The Art has definitley changed over the years and some of the posts on this forum testify to the lack of faith todays student have in such a dangerous Fighting Art.

Remember in Wing Chun "The Art is the Fighting Art and the Fighting Art is the Art"

[Ultimatewingchun]

fiamacho:

First of all, welcome to the board. It's a pleasure to have another TWC guy around - especially someone who started training back in the 70's.

As for U.S. bias...I did mention Rick Spain and Joe Moahengi on the list - and I did say that the list was partial because my knowledge of the Australian or the European guys is limited.

In fact if you look closely at the list - you'll also see the name Julian Richardson. I'd like you to tell me about him if you can, as my knowledge of him only comes from Blaine Collins.

Blaine is the American guy who was in the U.S. navy and stationed in Australia back around 1978-79-80...where he would go ashore and train under William Cheung virtually everyday for about 3 years or so.

He once mentioned an Australian guy to me named Julian Richardson - saying that his TWC fighting skills were first rate.

And Blaine paved the way for William Cheung to teach the sailors on the ship and to come to America...becoming the dai-sihing here in North America and continuing his training - began teaching - and stayed with William Cheung until the end of 1990.

As for the chocolate latte at Starbucks...I agree with a great deal of what you said...when William Cheung changed the grading structure with the big push being to have someone get their Gold Sash and become a full-fledged instructor within 2.5 years - I refused to go along with the new program - and I continued under the old curriculum and grading structure so that it would take at least 5 years (sometimes longer) for anyone to reach the Gold Sash Instructor Level.

And I purposely put off my own tests until I was convinced that I knew all the material well (had many discussions with Blaine about this in those days - as the promotion of some people to Instructor Level by William Cheung sometimes at a record pace...8 months...12 months....18 months....really put some people off - including me. It's also one of the biggest reasons why Blaine left the Association).

So even though I started with William Cheung in August, 1983....I didn't go for my Gold Sash test until October, 1990. Waited another three years to take my first test toward Master Level (the Butterfly Sword form)...and then didn't take another test until 10 years later...Took the Butterfly Sword applications test in 2003...even though by then I already also knew the Dragon Pole form and it's applications (two more tests toward Master Level - yet to be taken).

I have done these things on purpose. I don't like the McDojo approach either.

As for my belief in the value of crosstraining...this is where I disagree with you. But I wanted to give you some of my background first - so that you know where I'm coming from. And let me add a few more things before continuing about crosstraining: I have two students who received their Gold Sash around 1993/94...and 4 other guys who have taken some tests - one of them right up to Level 9 (just one before the Gold Sash)....

but these four guys have been with me for many years by now (between 8 and 12) - and are better TWC fighters than many people here in the U.S. who are wearing Gold Sashes....because I believe in the old ways. (I won't mention any names). And for one reason or another they weren't around or didn't have the money or whatever when GM Cheung was in town to test them....and now their lives have changed (who's married with 3 kids now and moved to Connecticut...who's temporarily living in Japan right now....who has two kids and moved to New Jersey....who has other family obligations that prevent him from coming to class at the present..and so on).

So these 4 guys rarely come to class anymore - and may never take the test....much less go for the Master Level.

And they don't really care all that much (Neither do I).

All they (we) care about is whether or not they can fight.

As for my training in wrestling and the use of some boxing to get to close range:

While I believe that there are definitely some nice counters to being fully clinched or taken down within wing chun...against a skilled grappler type - and especially against one who can skillfully use striking as a way to get close first....I don't think that any wing chun system has all the answers to this.

And if you're taken by surprise...anything can happen.

Didn't the MAN himself get taken down in Germany?

Would like to hear more from you about the TWC guys vs. the jiu jitsu guys that you referred to.

Japanese jiu jitsu?
Brazilian jiu jitsu?
What about Wrestlers?
Greco-Roman?
Free style?

Please give details if you can recall them. Were there credible shoots to the legs? To the body? Good, sharp setups?

Because there are grapplers and there are GRAPPLERS.

[Phil Redmond]

fiamacho,
Sifu told me about the Aussie and Kiwi fighters he had back in the day. Had I known their names I'd have mentioned them. He talked lots about Sifu Sifu Joe Moahengi. Victor already mentioned his name. Also, there are some of us here in the States that can and have used Wing Chun for real. I will concur with Blaine's reason for leaving. I don't agree with people becoming Sifus in short periods of time. That's all I'm saying.
Phil

[russellsherry]

hi all as i stated before , i started my training , 1976 of all the guys at williams who i thought were good, over the years the best were , big joe mohonie rick spain i bloody hate being nice to someone who i punched on with, but we have to tell the truth sometimes , big joe was and is a real gentleman he came to my school several times dropping in to say hi he is a real class act ,dana wong of course came after rick left i trained with dana for about 6 mouths before i met randy jullian richison was pretty good as well and also chris willson whom frought in hk as well chris was a very good fighter peace russellsherrty

[anerlich]

There are moves from the First and Second Forms which can easiyl dispose of Groundfighters, we used to learn them back in the 70's and 80's and YES it was from Cheung Lineage Wing Chun. Speak to your Instructors if they cannot show you any, then yes they have copied their Sifu's and NOT understood how to use the Art at all. The lack of faith shown by Wing Chun Practioners nowadays on how to handle these situations or talking about the weaknesses in the art just goes to show that there has been way too many Cappuccino's being consumed.

That is true, though how "easily" you can dispose of groundfighters depends on how thoroughly you have trained the techniques ... and the quality of the groundfighter.

There *are* some great moves in SLT and CK to control and attack from the tie-up, and to finish on the ground but most people would be unaware of the applications ... and if they don't understand basic grappling principles (basic control positions, head position, etc.) they're never going to have the chance to attempt them against an opponent.

I'm not sure at least one of the guys on your list, Rick Spain, totally shares your views, as he has spent the last six years practising and teaching Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu alongside his Wing Chun, and is currently being ranked a purple belt in BJJ as well as a red sash in TWC (attained prior to splitting with GM). Both styles continue to be drilled in class with high demands for technical excellence and the ablity to apply them under duress.

As for your Cappucino and Starbucks, I don't do either. I tested for gold sash after seven years of hard work, and then only because Sifu (Rick Spain) more or less insisted. I was pretty strong and fit for a 45 year old when I tested for level 1 master in 1999, and I literally was unable to stand or walk for several minutes after the completion of the test. I have a photo of myself taken afterwards with two black eyes and one side of my chest red, with the bruise of a palm print so precisely formed that every finger except the pinkie was clearly defined, and another of the print of the sole of the ball of a wrestling boot so the individual ridges could be seen. I've seen other people complete gold level tests after suffering in one case a shoulder dislocation and in another a fracture of the fibula.

Don't make the mistake of thinking every modern TWC school is as you describe.

[Phil Redmond]

I was already a Sifu when I started TWC. It took me 8 years after that to make Sifu again. And I'm not a Cappucino and Starbucks martial artist by any means.
Phil

[snakebyte8]

Vic, this is a little fishy!

So even though I started with William Cheung in August, 1983....I didn't go for my Gold Sash test until October, 2000. Waited another three years to take my first test toward Master Level (the Butterfly Sword form)...and then didn't take another test until 10 years later...Took the Butterfly Sword applications test in 2003...even though by then I already also knew the Dragon Pole form and it's applications (two more tests toward Master Level - yet to be taken).

Clearly a little mistake as this timeline would take us to about the year 2013
but i was interested in the actual numbers.

[fiamacho]

Good to read the feedback, first off I need to clarify one or two things I apologise for replying in a list it is just the easiest way for me to come across …

UltimateWingchun –

-Thanks for the welcome.
-Yes you did mention Rick & Joe and as for Julian Richardson, I never trained with this person so I cannot comment.
-Good to hear that you were honest enough with yourself to recognise that your standard at the stage did not warrant the grade, it takes time to develop the understanding required toi “APPLY” the techniques properly.
-With cross-training I believe that ther is nothing wrong in studying another Art in order to expose its’ weaknesses, but the problem with today’s exponent is that they have this mentality that MMA, BJJ and Vale Tud have an “air of invincibility. I say “bull****” if you know Wing Chun and apply it properly you can defeat these guys.
- As for your 4 friends I have no respect for anyone’s grade, just their ability to apply their knowledge. There are a number of “Instructors” who have the grade but get them into a confrontation and they fall apart. Someone achieving an Instructor’s Level just tells me that they know “x amount of moves” and it is great from a commercial money making angle but yet again there is a a vast ravine when it comes to reality.
-It amazes me how people perceive the low round house kick to be a “Thai Kick”, we were doing this as a natural part of our training curriculum, and yes it is Wing Chun. As for the Jiu-Jitsu guys they were Japanese, we also fought guys who you would call themselves freestylers. Grapplers are all the same as strikers they are just human and they hurt when you hit them … how you hit them and where is the key to success.

RussellSherry –

-Big Joe is definitely still a gentleman, until it comes time to apply and then you see a side to him that is nothing but “poetry in motion”.

Anerlich –

-If Sifu Rick Spain, who I have the utmost respect for, insisted you go for your grading then you must have been ready. Because Rick is not the sort of man that fools around.
-I made a generalisation about the state of Wig Chun, I have watched some of the “Instructors Videos” on the net sarcasm intended. And if that is the quality and standard of the teaching in TWC then “Lord Help Us”.
-The quality is poor, the application is poor, and the explanations do not make sense. You look at some of the Form footage and it changes between Instructors, compare it to Grand Master Cheung and you will see the difference even in the sequences. Hence the references made to Starbucks because all Wing Chun has become is a topic of conversation for the Latte Faithful.

Phil Redmond
-If it took you another 8 years of serious training then that is great.
-I understand that not everyone is a member of the Latte Faithful.

I hope that clear a few things up.

[Green Cloud]

V. A. Thomas do you guys know him I believe he is a Moy Yat guy, I have gotten to know him quite well over the years and from what I'v seen in tournaments not hear say he is quite smooth, and a gentleman to boot.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Wow!!! Thanks for catching that, snakebyte!

It should have read that I got my Gold Sash in October, 1990....

not 2000.

I'll go back and edit that post right now!


..............................



Green Cloud:

I studied with Moy Yat from 1975-1983.

Vingrove Thomas had studied with Douglas Lee (Lee Moy Shan)...who was Moy Yat's first student here in NYC.

I never met Vingrove during those years....but as fate would have it - after I began doing TWC - in fact I was already teaching William Cheung's system...and it was somewhere around perhaps 1991-92-93...somewhere in that period I was renting space for my classes at a dance studio 4 days a week - and my Saturday class immediately followed Vingrove Thomas's Ving Tsun class - so I got to know him a little bit.

Also ran into him once-or-twice at some kung fu tournaments back in those days...he would usually be doing the dragon pole form as a demo or he served (as I did once) as a judge in some of the competitions.

Nice guy.


........................


"UltimateWingchun –

-Thanks for the welcome.
-Yes you did mention Rick & Joe and as for Julian Richardson, I never trained with this person so I cannot comment.
-Good to hear that you were honest enough with yourself to recognise that your standard at the stage did not warrant the grade, it takes time to develop the understanding required toi “APPLY” the techniques properly.
-With cross-training I believe that ther is nothing wrong in studying another Art in order to expose its’ weaknesses, but the problem with today’s exponent is that they have this mentality that MMA, BJJ and Vale Tud have an “air of invincibility. I say “bull****” if you know Wing Chun and apply it properly you can defeat these guys.
- As for your 4 friends I have no respect for anyone’s grade, just their ability to apply their knowledge. There are a number of “Instructors” who have the grade but get them into a confrontation and they fall apart. Someone achieving an Instructor’s Level just tells me that they know “x amount of moves” and it is great from a commercial money making angle but yet again there is a a vast ravine when it comes to reality.
-It amazes me how people perceive the low round house kick to be a “Thai Kick”, we were doing this as a natural part of our training curriculum, and yes it is Wing Chun. As for the Jiu-Jitsu guys they were Japanese, we also fought guys who you would call themselves freestylers. Grapplers are all the same as strikers they are just human and they hurt when you hit them … how you hit them and where is the key to success."


***INTERESTING POST, fiamacho....I respect your attitude about the Vale Tudo, BJJ, and MMA guys not being invincible. That's absolutely true. There are holes in their games (with certain exceptions, of course. Wouldn't want to fight a guy like Fedor without a weapon ).

And yes, I understand your point about wanting to know what they do in order to exploit their weaknesses. But I like to take it a one step further. I want some of the strengths in their game to be some of my strength also....I look upon it as an insurance policy at the very least - and at most....being able to wrestle adds some more offensive weapons to my arsenal.

In other words...I want to not just know what they're trying to do so as to look for the weakness to expolit (and there are weaknesses to "just" wrestling or "just" doing BJJ....ie.- putting an elbow into someone's face who's going for a double leg takedown while blocking one of his arms with your other arm can be a beautiful thing)...

but I want to be able to use what he's doing as well - to a point. (I don't ever expect to be a world class wrestler)...But being able to slap on a figure four chokehold after that elbow might win that fight for me a lot quicker (or perhaps win the fight that I might have otherwise lost had I not known some wrestling)...as some guys can take an elbow shot and keep coming...which means that perhaps I'm in a range now (distance) where there's not enough room to keep on striking and get any real power on the move...ie.- it's time to grab him with a wrestling move - not a striking move. Just one example.

Nonetheless - I see where you're coming from and I know that at certain close ranges wing chun striking has a lot more to offer than what we see now in MMA fights - since they will usually go from a longer range type punching sequence than what is used in wing chun to a clinch phase....

and wing chun can definitely fill some gaps in that space - including some potential knockout striking.

[Phil Redmond]

V. A. Thomas do you guys know him I believe he is a Moy Yat guy, I have gotten to know him quite well over the years and from what I'v seen in tournaments not hear say he is quite smooth, and a gentleman to boot.

V.A. Thomas was my Sihing at Fu Jow Pai and then again at Lee Moy Shan's kwoon. He is a serious martial artist.
Phil

[Phil Redmond]

I have big respect for the guys "down under" (I hope that includes Kiwis as well), that got to train with Sifu Cheung back in the day. IMO the training was probably harder then. Thank God for me that I kickboxed and was trained at Duncan Leung's school and knew what "fighting" questions to ask of Sifu. I didn't want to be a 'I know the moves' but can't fight Sifu. Some of us are pumping up the volume and training full contact to see what you're strengths and weaknesses are. Outside of getting into street fights the best way to be effective is to work against resisting opponents. But you will also have to work with people outside of WC to really test yourself. We have a BJJ Brown Belt that is also a boxer and standup fighter at the school where I teach. I'm a white belt under him. When I get to the point where I think I know all about fighting I'll have become dilusional
Phil

[Kelly Knight]

I see that Sifu Dan Wong has been mentioned several times in this thread. I would invite you all to participate in his next visit to the States. It is a rare opportunity and not to be missed!

I have posted a notice with details at:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=40559

Thank you and have a great day!

Kelly Knight