Strength not important

[Pilgrim]

As I've trudged the martial arts path I've found it personally fun to be able to do lots of fingertip pushups, 100 plus regular pushups, lots of pullups, dynamic tension exercises, 20 rep squats, horse stances or other stances for long periods of time, blah, blah.
What I've really found more important then strength is skill and softness, the ability to feel the opoenent so that you can take or get in their space,and then do what you want to the opponent. Once contact, entering, and control of the opponent has occured, it doesn't take much strength to break a joint, strike the throat or eyes.
I think that's what happens in hard work over a long period of time, that's why old guys can clobber young guys.
And attitude overcomes a scared strong guy most of the time.

[Royal Dragon]

You are just saying that because you ARE strong. You don't remember what it was like to be weak.

[Merryprankster]

Technique/skill is nothing more than a way to maximize natural attributes.

Therefore, every little bit helps. In a bout between two evenly matched opponents, the stronger will most often prevail.

Why not maximize your chances, provided the law of diminishing returns doesn't kick in? You can become significantly stronger in 30 minutes a day, twice a week. So why not?

Besides, being strong has other health benefits not necessarily directly related to fighting.

[Anthony]

"it doesn't take much strength to break a joint, strike the throat or eyes."

Frist off, I'd like to say that nailing pinpoint targets like that in a real fight is nearly impossible. Even if you did, they would hardly stop some much bigger, stronger nut case who wants to knock your head off. Picture a hockey fight in a bar and then tell me youre going to poke the other guy in the eye before your teeth are missing.

"that's why old guys can clobber young guys. "

Um.....what planet do you live on?

You might want to "trudge" into a few real fights and then tell us that strength doesn't matter.

[Ho Chun]

The title says it all. Although, same SKILL, same weight, the stronger of the 2 will prevail.

Thats' why Tai Chi, and Iron Palm are soooooooo important.

Steve

[Royal Dragon]

Also, soft and hard have nothing to do with strength. Although, extreme strength leads to softness because it gives effortless power.

[Pilgrim]

Thanks for the replies
I still think a "I will kill you and whatever happens to me doesn't matter" attitude in a fight, along with skill and softness are more imporatnt ingredients then strength. Peak condition implies the strength comes and goes but softness, skill and attitude can always be present.
Before a fight you don't know who is stronger and when it comes to strength there's all kinds of scenarios such as strong legs guy verse strong upper body guy.
I know it's very hard because I practice but when you can control your opponent you do have every opportunity to give him a kiss or an elbow to the throat-whether he's a big hockey guy or your uncle who drank too much at a party. If you can control your opponent you hopefully can control yourself. The more I train the more inner strenght I have and I don't want to get in a fight.
Focused power is more important then being able to squat or bench a truck.
Strength training I like are doing arm grabs, the body exercise, lifting weights in various ways, sets, tempos, pushups, stance holding. A tough wrist forarm exercise is pinch gripping a wieght plate and doing curls, especially zott curls- 25 pounds for reps is tough.
And yes, there are plenty of old guys out there, especially amongst the group I practice with, who could hurt me easily, if they wanted to-that's why I'm glad I practice with them. Pilgrim.

[AndrewS]

Strength comes from technique.

Technique feels like greater strength.

'Softness' without body connection is garbage.

Body connection is necessary for optimum strength and effective softness.

Pilgrim, if you have anything yourself, I think RD has nailed- you've forgotten how to develop someone.

FWIW,

Andrew

[_William_]

Strength underlies all human movement. Attributes such as starting-strength, explosive-strength, and absolute strength are MUSTS. Surely you do not think that you should not improve in these? Improved strength qualities will have carryover to everything you do.

[Ford Prefect]

All else being equal, the stronger guy wins.

[Anthony]

I've been a Martial Artist for 20+ years and if I have to choose one most important quality for success in fight it would be strength.

"And yes, there are plenty of old guys out there, especially amongst the group I practice with, who could hurt me easily, if they wanted to-that's why I'm glad I practice with them. Pilgrim."

You need to make a distinction (when you post) between practicing with an old guy and getting into a real fight with one. Also, how "old" are these old guys and how "young" are you. You should be more specific. If youre 13 then of course an "old" guy can kick your a ss but if youre 25 then youre probably just a wimp.

Pilgrim...don't be offended but you sound like the perfect example of an armchair martial artist (or whatever the term may be). You train lightly and rationalize everything to no end but you never really fight. Just my feeling based on your posts. Not that i'm saying you should go out and get into fights. That's something that just happens without you planning it. It just sounds like you don't have that experience.

[IronFist]

All else being equal, the stronger guy wins.

Ding ding. We have a winner.

This thread is hilaroius. To paraphrase Sifu Allen of Green Dragon Studios (a big advocate of strength training for CMA people), most people do not have the strength to successfully apply the techniques they know.

Then you get the people who are all "well it doesn't take a lot of strength to poke out an eye."

Then you get the people who (correctly) reply that poking out an eye of a resisting opponent is not easy.

If you only have the strength to hurt someone with an eye gouge, but your opponent has the strength to hurt you no matter where he hits you, you're in trouble.

[Royal Dragon]

One thing I have noticed is it is always the guy with masssive amounts of strength that say you don't need strength. I think that is because they have so much strength that no matter what they do, they only use a small amount of thier total strength %

From thier perspective they aren't useing strength because they have so much of it in reserve (internal guys are perticularly guilty of this IMO) that the percentage of avaliable strength actually being used is really small.

A weaker person has less strength, so the percentage of strength used to accomplish a task is much greater.

[FatherDog]

Then you get the people who are all "well it doesn't take a lot of strength to poke out an eye."
...

If you only have the strength to hurt someone with an eye gouge, but your opponent has the strength to hurt you no matter where he hits you, you're in trouble.

Best and most sensible response to that.

[Pilgrim]

I guess it's just the coyote/monkey/prankster in me that thought of that thread, knowing it would cause a lot of blah blah blah

Of course one needs strength, the more the merrier. Of course we get weaker as we age but our softness and skill can continue to grow. I was a big advocate of the stronger the better,the harder the better, the faster the better. Being from C-town Akron I'm familiar with the Sigung Feeman Ong, Sigung Gene Chicoine, Sifu John Allen/ Green Dragon, Sifu John Louie/Northern Wind, and their off-shots. Their dedicated students are definately very strong.

Going from shaolin based arts to Indonesian style I have experienced and felt different energies from my teacher then I have from teachers in the past. I've seen how softness definately overcomes the hard; and also how the hard overcomes softness. My teacher and his teacher are definately very strong but they can do what they want with minimal strength, not cause they are very strong but because they are very skilled.

Let me think,old guys who are really good. The guy who started akido was old and frail and threw young guys all over the place. Like enter, control, and away they go. Paul Eng, Al Dascoscos, Shou Yu Liang, Dan Inosantos, Paul Dethouras, are all in their 60s and are still great teachers who I bet can fight if they had to and I know there are 20 year old football players who are way stronger then them ........but sorry.......I quess conjecture is just bull****.

I'm glad to have been shown the benefits of softness while realizing strength is important. I'm glad for a teacher who knows how to teach and fight and live an honorable life.

Softness and sensitivity seem to be very necessary when it comes to fighting with weapons- try being hard and strong against a knife fighter.

Besides hammer curling wieght plates, my favorite upper body exercise are handstand pushups- facing away from the wall seems harder then facing the wall since I can get into a steeper angle facing away from the wall. And stance training gets to my legs in a more intense way then squats, leg extensions/curls.

All mistakes are mine, no disrespect intended, and opinions are like life-we all have one. Time to train

Pilgrim