Chinese martial arts deliberately being self destructive

[Hitman]

Is it possible for anyone to tell me why some authentic kung fu teachers deliberately only teach forms and not the applications of the techniques hidden within the form to their students? Those teachers then claim that they are teaching self defence to their students. However, those teachers clearly have forgotten that once, their students got themselves into confrontations on the streets and lost miserably. Those students would then leave their classes and speak badly about their teachers and schools. Those authentic teachers are employing short sighted and irresponsible polices that would lead to the destruction of the traditional Chinese martial arts. The end result is dancers are being produced, instead of martial artists. This is exactly what had been to karate in the 1960 -70s, many karate practitioners could not use karate to defend themselves. They could not even defeat average western boxers, after several years of training. This eventually led to the development of kick boxing. Traditional Chinese martial arts demands that you to apply what you learnt in your class in a fight or in competition. You must be able to smash several bricks in order to prove to yourself that your techniques are effective in a fight. If you cannot do those things after 2-3 years of serious and intensive training, than you should ask yourself am I learning martial arts or just a dance?
To avoid politic - I will use myself and my club as examples. I study wing chun for more than two years under a famous wing chun school. The head of my school, master X, can apply his wing chun in a fight and his wing chun is very good. However, he liked to produce half-bucketful instructors in order to attract more students. Those instructors then taught us. He told us that what we had learnt was very deadly and we could defend ourselves in a fight. In his advert he claimed that he is teaching self-defence. Well, I could not break a brick without hurting myself. I had over 100 sparring matches against various martial artists ranging from black belts to beginners. I could not apply a single wing chun technique I had learnt. I also got beaten up like a human punching bag in some of the sparring matches, trying to use the wing chun techniques. In order for me to survive and win, I too had to fight like a kick boxer, even thought I know nothing about kickboxing. In my wing chun club, I have seen people with at least 5 years of wing chun training got hit by beginners with less than one year of training! You have to wonder what we have been learning during that 5 years!

If anyone said that I am showing no respect to my martial arts instructor and other instructors then I am guilty as charged. Why should I respect you when some of you do not even respect yourself and your chosen profession? I do not know any self respect (academic) teacher, who would deliberately mislead his/her students and caused them to fail their exams (cannot apply what you have learnt in a fight). If this had happened in an academic school, then the teacher would be sacked, due to professional incompetence in his/her work. The minimum requirement of any academic school is to ensure that its students could read and write after they leave the school (able to apply their martial arts skills– provide some decent defence and attack in fights). Otherwise, that school has failed its students and its reputation suffered. It may even face closure in the future, as the parents would regard the teachers in that school to be bad. Would you go and study in an academic (martial arts) school whose pupils could not even read and write (unable to apply their martial arts skills in fights)? Only in martial arts schools, can both the instructors and students get away by disgracing themselves and teaching the unsuspected public worthless martial arts!

If I have insulted anyone, this is because I do not want to see the genuine martial arts to die. The insult you receive from me is nothing compared to the insults I got from people, who witnessed my wing chun in action. My flat mate’s girl friend told me last night “your kung fu is useless!” My flat mate told me that my teachers stink and my wing chun organisation is a bull**** organisation! It is a waste of time learning from master X. He should be my teacher instead! Even though he do not know a thing about martial arts! You tell me how am I going to tell them that they are wrong to make those comments, when they made those observations based on how I fight!
I strongly urge you teachers to spend more time teaching, practising and less time arguing with each other, especially on the internet. Perhaps then the quality of the Chinese martial arts will improve. If you want to prove to people that your martial arts skills is very deadly, then I would advise you to enter yourself as a competitor for any of the NHB tournaments around the world. Talking is cheap! Anyone can talk behind the computer screen about how deadly he or she is! Whether you agreed or disagreed with me is not important. What is important is whether you and your students can apply their martial arts in a fight. If your students can apply their martial arts skills in fights, then you are a good teacher and have done your duty.
Otherwise, when the real masters pass away, there will only be human punching bags, kick boxers, performers and dancers left in the martial arts world. Do you really want this to happen? If you do then you are not only destroying your own school’s future, but also the reputation of the Chinese martial arts. You also disgraced your own teacher(s). No wonder people look down at Chinese martial arts and think that it is a waste of time! Why should they not look down at Chinese martial arts, when they saw how easily beginners of other non-Chinese styles could beat up Chinese martial artists like me!
One of the famous wing chun teachers wrote in one of his books that since he was going to teach people wing chun. He could never stand form being mocked as a half bucketful instructor – meaning an instructor who was not even fully trained himself. He also did not like to confess to his students that he did not know the whole system of wing chun and they should find themselves other instructors. He completed his training with Grandmaster Yip Man.
Please do not moaned or bad mouth your instructors about your lack of martial arts skills, if you are unwilling to put in the number of quality hours of practise you needed, in order to make your martial arts to work! There is no short cut in martial arts training, if there is then you will see people actually applying what they have learnt, in tournaments and fights. Fast food service does not exist in martial arts training! You only get out what you put in! If you spend only 2 hours per week training, then it will takes you a life time to master your chosen martial arts. To be good at anything worthwhile takes a lot of practise and hard work. TALKING about it does not make you an expert in your chosen martial arts. 2 hours per week is about 4.4 days of training per year (104 hours). Do you honestly believe that you can become a martial art expert (getting a black belt) in just 13.2 days or 312 hours over a 3 years period? If you do then you are being very silly. I have sparred with a brown belt in karate, who could use his karate skills in a fight. He practised 2 hours per day (~152 days or 3640 hours) for five years under a good instructor. If he is willing to put in that much time practising in order to make his karate to work, then why can’t you do the same?

Hitman

[Royal Dragon]

The problem is this, if all you see is an outside form, twice, in a few seconds (or even repetedly) then how are you even going to know how to do this?

If that is the only way authentic master's teach, you can literally get far more from book and video learning. At least with that you have a repetable example of the technology. You may never get the nuances of a specific style correct, but you will be able to see moves, and figure out how to make them work. You'd be creating your own version of said style, if not a style all your own, but you would still get more than the (all too common) teacher who only shows the outside of a set and nothing else.

Learning is an art of redundant repition. Each layer is refined a little more, and a little more. A true teacher knows this, and guides the student to awakening with each pasing layer or aspect of the art.

Lets use auto repair as an example. You cannot just give someone a huge tool box and a broken car and expect them to be able to fix it. they need teaching, an understanding of the vorte principals that an car functions under. You need technical experiance, and trouble shooting skills. All this is learned through a long rocess of study combined with practical experiance under the guidence of a master mechanic. Even before a mechanic goes to school, they "Apprentice" under someone, be it Father to Son, or an official apprentiship program in a shop.

No mechanic is ever just given tools, shown some gross, general useage of said tools, and then expected to be able to diagnose and repair a mechanically dammaged car with such a vertually non existant understanding of thier tools, let alone the car, LET ALONE the specific car they must repair.

Martial arts is the same way.

[greendragon]

It is YOUR resposibility to ask to be shown applications. Learn to analize forms yourself. You can learn from a form for years, discovering the deeper applications inside of it. Don't waste time under a bad teacher for years, try something different until you find the right teacher. Also you must find your fighting spirit, instinct, intent.

[Wong Fei Hong]

Is it possible for anyone to tell me why some authentic kung fu teachers deliberately only teach forms and not the applications of the techniques hidden within the form to their students?

I didnt quite understand if your question is just this and the whole post is based around why teachers dont teach everything, or if its in general why most kung fools couldnt fight their way out of a paper bag due to their teachers suckyness.
I will try and answer both.


Well imho most schools will actually make you a worse fighter than what you were when you went in, your bodies natural instincts in fight or flight are
a) run like a bitich or
b) clobber that dude silly.

Now you go into a kung fu school and are taught useless things like a billion blocks chasing the opponents arms , defending yourself to no end, i mean face it doesnt matter who you are you will get hit, the fact that you spend years learning so many blocks teaches you to be afraid to get hit.
But lastly the most damage comes from not being allowed to hit the other guy, during sparring or 2 man techniques.
This tottaly remaps your fight or flight to :
a) run
b)be to scared to get hit and want to block everything and when the guy comes into range pull back everypunch because this is how you have trained as well as the fact that you have been sparring with a non aggresive attacker who is slower than this guy who wants to pummel you.

Thats one reason why guys who do kung fu cant use it.

The other reason is that the techniques which are taught arent supposed to be used in this context. For example someone learns a defense against kick or defense against attack. 100 odd years ago, you had to do it once in a fight and make it count, thats why karate is often dubbed hitozuki or ikken hisatsu, which means one hit or 1 hit should kill.

Because you should spend say 30% time learning practising your few moves applying them properly, 30% strengthening the body and 30% time working on that specific skill you will use with that like iron fist or whatever.
Instead you go into a school they teach you 40 forms which is useless 100 blocks which are even more useless, tell you its good to be a pune (this is the single biggest load of bol0cks ive ever heard, ala dont weight train it will make you slow.Yeah thats why there are weight categories in all martial based sporst because the little guy is really the killer) And dont teach you the skill. Instead you do a billion useless techniques on end.

Thats the second reason why

The reason why they are like this is because they never learnt it properly, look at most teachers, they either went to study overseas and came back with a grading to teach because the organisation wanted them to so the organisation can get more money and fame, or because the teacher wants to make more money in his spare time , hey what the hell open a school, or because of ties with ppl after ww2 etc etc.

The other reason why is because nobody wants to learn it the real way, if you were trained till you cried or puked every lesson, 98% of students would leave the class. If you were taught only 15 moves and those were the real moves that worked and you were told to practise only these 15 moves again 98% of the students would leave they wouldnt last 5-10 years.

(when i say you i mean a student not you specifically.)

If you look at boxing they have their hook - shovel hooks and or uppercuts their straights and or crosses , and their straights or jabs.
they got their bobing weaving and their jamming the opponents punches as well as their counters.

"trad" martial artist have 428 different moves in 68 hidden katas or forms. But if you told them only to practise the 15 that worked like how a boxer does, they wouldnt.

Also how would a school make money if you didnt continue to learn the newest fandangliest kata or form so they can milk you.

About why teachers dont teach the applications of forms is because of many reasons.
1 some forms dont have applications they never were supposed to they were just a collection of moves which you apply as you like.
2 the form was made and the moves are to internally strengthen the body or externally toughen, like a chi kung set or a dynamic tension set example sanchin or wild goose qigong, however over time people actually thought it was a normal form since it got bundled with the other 20 (example siu lim tao in wing chun that you do, this is an internal form, kindof like tai chi or tensho from goju ryu karate, but people learn it like a normal form)
3 The teacher knows that since his students could never use the applications he doesnt even bother teaching them, he teaches them the form, and then lets them spar "naturally" which doesnt really lead anywhere.
4 the teacher feels they are his cherised secret , OMG my teachers teacher taught me that this is the uber double double secret kancho g@yness move i will never show these mere mortals this secret application.
5 because his teacher never used them and in the curriculum there is no space for them.

Hope this helps, also you say i hope i havent insulted anyone , sometimes its good to insult people cause it gets them off their high horse
Also never look at a teacher compared to you, you say your teacher could use what he learnt to fight, thing is though your teacher spent maybe 20-30 years training and you dont know if he was a boxer for 20 years of that, and then he just decided to do something like kung fu as it appealed to him.
Also teachers look impressive to students, cause students mostly suck ! They walk in a school dont have a clue, see fast hands and get thrown around a bit by the teacher and then hold him in awe because he walks around like im da man. Whereas in reality that teacher could suck b@lls compared to an amateur boxer/kickboxer who is competitive.

[Sifu Darkfist]

Im going with youknowwho on this one, in northern mantis there are 3 sometimes four possibilities to most famous techniques. if the master taught each and every one you would die of boredom not to mention suck at kung fu. the fact of the matter is they teach the system sometimes only some of it but they teach you how to move your body in its entirety.

From there you must decide which of the punches you do well which kicks you can and cannot do and throws etc. THEN you must choose a limited few if you are going to fight. train them all the time all the time practice them from all angles all leg positions all speeds against tons of friends in the ring until they are you

you will then be able to use technique when you fight and you will apply like your master does. a man doesnt need a whole fre aking system. how can any man learn every fre aking praying mantis form unless he is just doing it to write a book.
out of all the forms i know i only train a handfull day in and day out.
Take my words like a grain of salt but i have applied martial arts my whole life

never revert back to a (kickboxer) unless that is what you are inside.

[SPJ]

this is a 2 way street.

I was in the mall area the other day. there is a gym with punching bags hanging and strung from the ceiling to the floor. which means the bags will not swing around. the bags are "crowded".

there was a class. they just jab and low roundhouse kick.

the class charged a lot.

the ad said stress relief and fitness.

i think it would be cheaper just to buy the bag and hanging it in your garage or basement.

in the old time, Kung fu teaching and learning are selective, if the students' characters are good, he or she may inherit the whole deal.

otherwise, everyone else is only watching the show and donating some money.

this is called presenting yourself and "selling" your arts for show and money. or Xian Shen Mai Yi.

You are a fighter already. you know your physical attributes or limits.

as pointed out in early posts.

it is not about how many forms or moves you learn.

it is about how well you know and master the skills of the moves.

most important of you know what you need and take whatever you need from a particular style and build you own.

as if you go to a restaurant, they show you the menus (forms), you may pick what you like, you only have one meal per time.

And nobody is expecting that you eat every single item on the menu.

You may pick pak sao (defending against high punch) with a vertical fist to the chest or nose and drill.

you may pick lan sao (defending against mid punch) with a palm strike to the neck.

you may turn your waist and raise one your elbow or bon sao to neutralize high, mid low punch, you elevate the elbow high, mid low also. using the forearm to contact and the other hand to grab.

you may use the elbow to attack, too.

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there are 10 thousands ways of using the buddha hand or fu sao so they said.

oh yes big time. pak sao, lan sao, bon sao on and on are all buddha hands/palms facing upward, downward, sideways on and on.

--

all this time, people are still looking for the buddha hand/palm,

--

where is the buddha from? it comes from you heart.

so the buddha palm stays in the center line where your heart is. from your heart, it goes everywhere, well only to your shoulder line, all the harm will not hurt you.

because you have the buddha palm,

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[Royal Dragon]

Kung Fu is not only in the forms, techniques and currculem. It's in the strategy and "Way" those techniques are applied. You can't just show a form, and fully expect to get the style right.

Each skill must be drilled in a variety of ways. You must know the rules governing the styles use of those techniques, and you must make sure you adhear to those rules when you fight.

This is a detailed and time consuming envdeavor on both the students part, AND the teacher. You can't just give a form, expect a student to memorise it in a quick showing, experiment with it, and then give detailed instruction ONLY after they already figured out a use. With this method, only the gifted prodegy, mabey 1 in 1000, will get an anywhere. In the meantime, you have 999 people who have no clue, can't make anything functional, and may very well have less self defense capablity because of gross missunderstandiings than if they did nothing.


The Chinese teach backwards. You must teach the fundementals of structure, and body mechanics and the principals of strategy (enter, evand, block/parry counter). You have to teach the foot work, and how it is used to protect, and position for counter attack. You have to teach how to both balance yourself, and unbalance your opponent. None of this is readily avaliable in the form's initial presentation.

Yes, to someone who already knows it may be aparent and serve to remind the seasoned fighter, but it's not something a beginner could ever see. It's for the Master or teacher to record his system. This only works because he already has the knowledge imbedded in the fiber of his being. To those with out said knowledge to begin with, showing a form a few times is useless. So is doing forms over, and over again.

If you want to teach the form first, fine, but make darn sure it's fully broken down, and each aspect is fully taught or explained. Make sure that all the supplementary drills that are derived from the form are not only taught, but trained as well. Make sure the USE of the techniques, the entry, footwork, evasions and actual strategy governing a techniques use and combination of thechniques are fully disclosed. Then practice, practice practice as redundancy is the key to learning.

THEN and ONLY Then should the student go off on his or her own, experiment and search out the deeper aspects of the teachings. To try and do this first is just asssing, and the real reason TCMA suck so bad.

[rogue]

Forms have to go. They have outlived their purpose and usefullness and should be discarded on the trash heap of inefficient martial art practices.

[Royal Dragon]

I dissagree. The form may not originally have been for the student, and maybe they should not be taught to students, but they do serve a purpose, especially if you are a teacher. They are excellent solo practice, and a great way to keep your cardio/endurance up, efficiently maintain practice of structure and mechanics and also organise a curicculem without having to dedicate anything to paper.

The more i persue the Chinese arts, the more I believe the forms purpose is for the experianced player's mantinance scedule, not for teaching students anything. It's a very sport specific way for the high level player to review his system, get his cardio and basic conditioning, and easily remember the apps and techniques of his style.

The students are better off learning small segments of the form to learn gross mechanics, and working those as isolated two man drills for refinement, single standing postures for structure, and free fighting practice for perfection and learning useage against resisting opponents.

[SPJ]

the forms, classics, and drills are all "dead".

the students and practitioners bring life into them.

we practice as RD said and then they become parts of us.

[Hitman]

Dear all,
Thank for all your replies.

It is YOUR resposibility to ask to be shown applications. Learn to analize forms yourself. You can learn from a form for years, discovering the deeper applications inside of it. Don't waste time under a bad teacher for years, try something different until you find the right teacher. Also you must find your fighting spirit, instinct, intent.


I have already asked about the application of the forms. However, master X refused to teach us (including his instrcutors). If we want to learn the application of the forms we have to buy his DVD or turn up in his private lessons (£70 per hour). He gives very litttle information away in his DVD and private class. I have told him twice that some of his techniqes would not work on a street and it would get me kill, after learning them for 5 minutes. I have demonstrated to him the weakness in those techniques. His responsed were I am being awkward or not answering my quesitons.
Master X is more interested in making money than teaching his students.





Hitman

[Wong Fei Hong]

Dude your teacher sucks balls. Its that simple change him.
Someone who believes that there are secret techniques and secret this and that isnt worth the time of day, its just a way to milk you of money if he wants you to buy his dvd and his private lessons.
To not answer your questions and just find you awkward also shows his lack of understanding, he just likes to sit on his high horse and be DA SIFFUUU !!!!
Ive met a lot of sifus like this, which are like "you like to learn come learn do as i speak no like nono you go now go go chinese kung fu very good karate smelly japanese no good"
This attitude is just covering up his lack of knowing anythign about martial arts , the other way is to throw around begining students in order to impress.
Dont get me wrong , you should respect your sifu and do what he says but he should respect the fact that you chose to learn from him and pay him your hard earned cash.
You know if ernesto hoost or tyson or crocop came up to me and told me the secret to being no1 fighter in the world is to learn to pluck raddishes with my assh0le, then by golly i would believe him and i would do that till i can carve smiley faces in that raddish with my butt cheeks.
But if a no name sifu with this attitude plays it "you westerners dont respect kung fu and want to question it,and want to steal my lineage cough cough secret techniques" then it shows his lack of respect towards you for putting in effort to learn and for choosing him. You cant demand respect you gotta earn it.
There is no point keeping tradition if it doesnt work, what are you upholding a tradition or something that is traditional that works ?
Also my comment on secret techniques, earlier , there are secrets but most secrets are something that people dont even want to learn most of the time , the reason they are secret isnt so much anything other than to be in the know, i.e you are a lineage holder when you know them.

[SPJ]

I thought the students/teacher relationship is like that of the father and son.

To be fair, every single technique has its weakness. in order to have advantage somewhere Yang, you also create some disadvantage Yin.

For every object, there is a shadowy side and sunny side.

Wing Chun is to temporarily or momentarily trap or confine one or both of the opponent's arms and attack.

the defense part is Yin and the offense part is Yang.

"guarding the centerline"

there are many books outthere explaining a lot.

the rest is entirely up to you.

teachers, books, dvd are only giving you pointers or directions.

we make the journey.

the fun part is on the way more so than the destination.

how do you guard your vital areas with both hands and posture/steps.

you may also defend with elbow method?

sometimes the weakness in the technique may be used as a setup to lure the opponent into your trap.

so the question is how do you change with hands, elbows and postures/steps to cover your weakness and turn them against the opponent.

all these will be in your notes and become your "secrets".

--

[rogue]

Hitman, Time to find a new instructor and a new art. Look for what is effective and take that up. A fresh start can do wonders.

[SPJ]

In response to the title of the thread;

We build something for ourself from our own.

instructions, manuals, lessons with teachers are only part of it.

everything comes from us and for us.

a teacher can only do so much.

there is a chan story.

a buddhist monk jumped into a river and tried to rescue a drowning person.

and yet if he lost the will to live and may try to end his life again.

nexttime, may be no one will be around to rescue him.

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