Pure Wing Chun, Applied Wing Chun

[Airdrawndagger]

IMHHHO

Beimo is not equal to Kung Fu.

Beimo is nice but what to Bei? who is more saddistic? Being more saddisic is a characteristic of aggression which may or may not lead the applicant to more sucess in a match. more agressive? better skill? Better cultivation is flow? better understanding? Yes. Better understanding and cultivation are charateristics of better skill which will allow the practitioner to further there understandings and knowledge of that particular art. clearly on how to produce high quality students?........

Lots of things very broad IMHO. Otherwise, we might stucked in the "close perception"

constant chi sao with out other tests of skill under a real, live, spontaneous environment could also be considered "close perception"...

You will never fully understand war if you only go to boot camp.

[Edmund]

My definition of pure was very different from the one you are talking about. Every lineage in my definition has a pure art as part of their study which later can become an applied art for those so inclined. The pure people can study forms, theory and do heavy duty sparring but it falls short of the definition proposed by Terrence for example as doing real fighting or real swimming as he put it. The applied people take their pure art in the direction that Terrence indicated as being the most useful.

What's so pure about only studying forms and theory?
I think those who are just doing forms and theory aren't studying WC at all.
Any numbskull can do some choreographed WC routines and memorize some sayings.

The whole point of the theories is to be able put them to use. They are supposed to help you become a better fighter. Why come up with theories at all?

I mean anyone could imagine all sorts of theories that don't help anyone in the slightest. Then they call it WC and say, "I'm a purist."

There's all manner of Qigong phonies claiming theories about health. Unless they
actually manage to help someone get healthier what's the point of it?

[lawrenceofidaho]

What's so pure about only studying forms and theory?

It is pure.......

Pure conjecture, that is........

[sihing]

It is pure.......

Pure conjecture, that is........

Until it becomes truth for you? Then it is not conjecture?

This applies for everyone here. You have to absorb the system within yourself and then test it under fire (not to prove that it works but to absorb it within yourself under stress). When that challenge is met and passed you can say it is not theory but fact. Now since some of us here are teachers also, we can say more than "it just works for me and maybe not for others", because some of us have passed on our knowledge and have seen others (average joe's and jane's) use the same methods as us to acheive similar effectiveness with it. Now through the years I have seen some who did not gain the skills needed to make themselves effective using WC methodologies. Is this the art's fault or their own fault? It's their own fault IMO, because they did not train enough and/or lacked enthusiasm towards what they were studying.

James

P.S. Lawrence, no disrespect and try not to take this personally (as I know you are a nice guy, really) but more and more I see a real lack of faith regarding WC and it's methods coming from you. Why even post or view posts on this forum anymore when you feel this way? I find it funny when people that claim to practice WC come on here to put it down, or are you (like others) looking at individuals and basing your opinions on that? Maybe you should look only at the best of the best (famous WC players like Cheung, Boztepe, Lam, etc..) and base your opinions on them? Would you be so confident in WC's lack of combat effectiveness when facing one of these people in a life and death situation? Maybe you, as well as some others on this forum, should look at the JKD board, it's just below this one, that may fill your needs....

[lawrenceofidaho]

Now since some of us here are teachers also, we can say more than "it just works for me and maybe not for others", because some of us have passed on our knowledge and have seen others (average joe's and jane's) use the same methods as us to acheive similar effectiveness with it.....

Effectiveness against who?
-Skilled & conditioned fighters? (Just curious.......)

Maybe you should look only at the best of the best (famous WC players like ______, Boztepe, Lam, etc..) and base your opinions on them? Would you be so confident in WC's lack of combat effectiveness when facing one of these people in a life and death situation?

Boztepe and Lam were both:
1) Competitive full contact fighters
2) Cross-trainers
I think those two qualities played a big part in the level of ability they now possess, which is why I advocate those experiences for people who want to have effective wing chun fighting skills. (Perhaps not necessarily competitive fighting experience, but at least going through hard sparring cycles similar to how full contact fighters train.)

-Lawrence

[stricker]

hey lawrence,

I think this is what sihing James is trying to say!

(jk james, please dont take offense hahaha)

anyway, i totally agree with you lawrence (about boztepe and lam) the way i see it its about the journey as much as the destination. funny too, all the martial arts teachers i actually trust have been there done that, experienced a few different martial arts and actually fought. i think really experience is so valuable. otherwise your just living in a bubble.

of course youve gotta have depth as well as breath. and sihing i'm not saying wing chun sucks and mma is the way to go, or everyone has to do mma, far from it wing chun is awesome and everyones journey and choices are personal. but i think the benefits FAR outweigh any downsides and if your in a position to do some (for example) mma training and you dont, or if you say any other martial art is a load of rubbish without actually educating yourself, your doing your wing chun a disservice. it allows us to get from pure conjecture to something we know in ourselves.

sure you can look at say wing chun geometry and say yeah i know if i shift correctly i wont get hit but i can hit him because of the shoulders and range etc, but is that really knowing in yourself from experience, or is it knowing on a purely intellectual level??? sure it works in class, but what about against someone outside that environment, or even a real boxer is a tricky b*stard?? what if you try it and it doesnt work (not that it wont ever, just it needs more training to iron out your mistakes, which you wont know unless you ... etc...)

i'm a wing chun faithful, testing the limits of his faith and doing a first-hand course in comparative religion hahaha... dont choke me sihing for my lack of faith hahaha!

oh and tom kagan, the way i see wing chun is its a martial art, and those slants are personal choices what we choose to get out of it. so really there is no slant. out of interest what do you think wing chuns slant is?

anyway back to the point of the thread, i sort of liked the first post i mean there is a difference between pure wing chun (like some detail in dan chi for example) and applied wing chun (how to deal with a kicking attack for example) but utlimately the two should be the same, or as you said a continuum. for example doing very technical dan chi might seem pointless for fighting, but then if you do do it, you might find in an applied (fighting) situation that it makes a difference. so again i think it needs balance. you should probably take a concept or bit of detail, move in a form or whatever, and go across the whole spectrum with it, so start in the form, then chi sao, then lat sao drill, then for real. then back to the start and so on... but if you spend too much time at either end of the spectrum without visiting the other then youll be all out of balance, and end up not being as effective. what that balance is... dont ask me im not a teacher hahaha!

cheers!

[BRIAN]

WING CHUN IS AN EXCELLENT ART AND FIGHTING SYSTEM. uNFORTUNATLY LIKE MANY THERE THOSE PEOPLE WHO CAN'T MAKE IT COUNTR WHEN IT REALLY MATTERS BUT THAT GOES FOR ANY ART. IN RERGARDS TO MMA ALTHOUGH I HAVE MUCH RESPECT FOR THEIR ABILITIES AND THE CONDITIONING THEY MUST GO THROUGH REMEMBER IT STILL JUST A SPORT. TRY GRAPPLING IN THE STREET OR IN AN AREA WHERE THERE IS BROKEN GLASS, HYPERDERMIC NEEDLES OR MULTIPLE ATTACKERS. bELIEVE ME WHEN MMA FIRST CAME OUT EVERY POLICE DEPARTMENT HAD A WOODIE FOR IT NOW THEY HAVE REVISTED IT AND HAVE REALIZED THAT BEING ON THE GROUND IS NOT WHERE YOU WANT TO BE. THAT DOESN'T MEAN ONE SHOULD NOT KNOW ANYTHING IN THE ARENA EITHER. BUT HONESTLY, AMERICAN KUNG FU WAS TAUGHT TO US BY THOSE CHINESE KUNG FU PRACTICIONERS. I FOR ONE WAS TAUGHT BY ONE OF THEM AND I HAVE BEEN TRAINING FOR ABOUT 14 YEARS AND MY SIFU CAN STILL TOSS ME.

[chisauking]

May I ask, what did Willy Cheung cross train in?

Gary Lam may have crossed trained, but why doesn't he feel the need to adopt his previous style(s) into wing chun? And, why doesn't he train in Thai boxing any more?

Hawkins Cheung may have crossed trained, but why doesn't he pratice karate any more?

More telling, why have they chosen wing chun over their previous styles? If cross training is productive in learning wing chun, why haven't they incorporated this method to their teaching?

[lawrenceofidaho]

May I ask, what did Willy Cheung cross train in?

I have no idea what he did, or did not, cross train in, which is why I did not refer to him at all in my post.

Gary Lam may have crossed trained, but why doesn't he feel the need to adopt his previous style(s) into wing chun?

He has, actually.......
Ernie is probably the best person to describe the extent.

And, why doesn't he train in Thai boxing any more?

What makes you think he doesn't? Or for that matter, that he doesn't have a current interest in any other styles?

Hawkins Cheung may have crossed trained, but why doesn't he pratice karate any more?

Likely, because karate shares many of the same weaknesses as wing chun unless it has been modified by modern training methods and insights gained from realistic sparring.

More telling, why have they chosen wing chun over their previous styles?

Wing Chun is a great style, IMO...... Why not choose it as your primary art?

If cross training is productive in learning wing chun, why haven't they incorporated this method to their teaching?

Many good instructors have.......aside from the aforementioned, guys like Chung K. Chow, Alan Orr, and a number of ex-EWTO masters also come to mind.

[lawrenceofidaho]

bELIEVE ME WHEN MMA FIRST CAME OUT EVERY POLICE DEPARTMENT HAD A WOODIE FOR IT NOW THEY HAVE REVISTED IT AND HAVE REALIZED THAT BEING ON THE GROUND IS NOT WHERE YOU WANT TO BE.

When "MMA" first came out, it was actually BJJ purists flopping into the guard, and tiring out the pure strikers before applying a submission........ Few of those guys would last 60 seconds against today's well-rounded competitors, though......

MMA is probably the fastest evolving (i.e. -improving) "martial art" there is......... MMA today is not about taking the fight to the ground, -it's about doing what's most effective in a given situation.

Check out Straight Blast Gym's MMA curriculum for law enforcement here:
http://www.isrmatrix.org/videos/isrle25mb.wmv

I think you'll be impressed by what you see there, Brian.

Now let's talk about about MMA and Wing Chun cross-trained!.......... Oh yeah!!

-L

[BRIAN]

I dont mean to say that's all MMA is about. I know it's not. But The shelf life of a fighter is not extremly long. The thing I like about WC, Aikido and other atrs similar is that even when your fifty you are still just as effective or even more so. But the art doesn't make the fighter but the person does. I appreciate your input from my last reply, i do personally cross train a little bit.

[Matrix]

Why even post or view posts on this forum anymore when you feel this way? I find it funny when people that claim to practice WC come on here to put it down, or are you (like others) looking at individuals and basing your opinions on that? ....... Maybe you, as well as some others on this forum, should look at the JKD board, it's just below this one, that may fill your needs....

James,

First of all, this is a PUBLIC forum and people are free to express themselves as they see fit. You have no right to ask people to leave or disrespect them - despite your half-hearted comments to the contrary - because you don't like what they have to say.

I don't see why you feel the need to chastize people who don't support your view. Your view should be able to withstand the challenge that others post.

I think that if you look at chisauking's reply, you will see a much more mature response. At least that's how I see it.

[BRIAN]

Lawrence,

I watched the link you advised me on and I thought it was excellent. I for one teach my wing chun vry similar to the way the were showing it in terms of Chi Na techniques. If you noticed oone of the core things they did in almost every movement was keep the center line and face to face theory an almost constant. Therefore, I believe that when one does not properly adapt to the real world and it's enviorment then you are truly not doing wing chun. Also, remember Wing Chun is meant for the average person to defend themselves again the average or above average person. It is not an antedote for verything or every situation, but you the practicioner must apply the art in a way that makes sence to you. That is why Wing Chun is a concept and does not or should not teach specific movements but rather teach how to feel oyur opponents movement and how you should respond. Thanks again for the link.

Brian

[sihing]

Effectiveness against who?
-Skilled & conditioned fighters? (Just curious.......)


Boztepe and Lam were both:
1) Competitive full contact fighters
2) Cross-trainers
I think those two qualities played a big part in the level of ability they now possess, which is why I advocate those experiences for people who want to have effective wing chun fighting skills. (Perhaps not necessarily competitive fighting experience, but at least going through hard sparring cycles similar to how full contact fighters train.)

-Lawrence

Lawrence,

Please define Skilled and Conditioned fighters? And since when did Idaho have a monopoly on them...

When was Boztepe a competitive fighter? Streetfighter yes, I have heard all the stories. I've also heard about Sifu Lam's experiences, and I believe the same that a competitive experience will not hurt one's usage of Martial skills, but is it really necessary? You say that if one's trains to the same intensity as the competitors that the same results will prevail. I agree, hard testing of one's skills have to take place for the student to actually learn and be able to apply the skills WC will engrain in them. You can call it whatever you want, sparring or testing, it is all the same. Now do I really have to go and fight with every competitive fighter in the city to do this? Well if my goal is to compete in the competitive theater, then maybe you are right, but not all want this type of experience. So IMO sparring and testing in the school against those that can test them sufficiently enough will suffice. I know from experience that I can test anyone in the school to a sufficient enough level of skill to be able to use it on the street. And there are many others in the kwoon that can provide the same. A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, only thing is the pro's through them faster and stronger, which can be dealt with when proper application of WC is applied. You see it doesn't matter how fast or strong your attacker is when you have already slowed them down and taken away their strength with proper understanding and application of WC concept/principals and technique. As a practitioner I too have strength and speed to offer to my opponent, so it is not a one sided affair. All of us (when you are not physically disabled) have this to offer our opponents, so why do people here always claim it to be us as the weaklings and our opponents as so much more skilled and conditioned. In our kwoon, every day we have classes we have 1 conditioning/cardio class, which consists of very high intense kicking, punching, hand bag work, kicking/heavy bag work, push up, sit ups, leg raises, knee ups, etc etc...drills, lasting 1 hour. All kinds have come through the doors over the years to try the class, not one has gone through the whole workout the first time without having to stop. So that is covered in regards to how we train our students, and we are NOT a competitive/sport training facility (although we have had successes in the ring).

I think in essence we essentially agree on many points. To become effective in a fighting art, you have to practice consistently and train hard physically, with a good understanding of what one is training in. But physical training alone will not make you a great fighter. What you train in, how effective it is, and your understanding of it will add to the equation, IMO.


James

[sihing]

James,

First of all, this is a PUBLIC forum and people are free to express themselves as they see fit. You have no right to ask people to leave or disrespect them - despite your half-hearted comments to the contrary - because you don't like what they have to say.

I don't see why you feel the need to chastize people who don't support your view. Your view should be able to withstand the challenge that others post.

I think that if you look at chisauking's reply, you will see a much more mature response. At least that's how I see it.

I agree with you Bill, each and every member here has a right to express their opinions, and whether or not I agree with them I would not and did not tell anyone to leave or ask them either. The words, "Why" and "Maybe" were used in my post you quoted. These words may be understood as a suggestion, not a command.

I don't chastize people, but I wonder why, and confront those that claim to be practitioners of WC but look for every chance to put it down, that's all and that's what I have seen from a few on this forum (maybe that's why most have left this forum to look elsewhere...). I have a faith in WC and when someone says in simple terms that it sucks, I get SLIGHTLY offended when I know otherwise. It's not a personal thing, and I would love to meet everyone on this forum someday in a friendly environment to exchange ideas and train with, as this would be the only way to really understand what one another is try to explain to us all through these posts.

James