Kung Fu Star In Brothel Bust

[Mel]

No, Face2Fist, women are not knocking at my door. Why would they?

When you talk about legalization, you talk about AIDS check ups and a safe environment. Do you really think legalization would do that? How many inspectors/code enforcement agents are paid off for myriad things these days? Do you think it would be any different in prostitution? So how "safe" would people actually be?

Also, it sounds like you are thinking of a "safe environment" for the Johns, i.e., no AIDS. Sexually transmitted diseases are only ONE thing prostitutes have to worry about. I don't think legalization will stop them from getting beaten by their pimps and Johns. Or does that not matter?

[David Jamieson]

Ben-

You have a suprisingly negative view of something you likely know little about?

How many prostitutes do you actually know?

I know a few. And yes, some are there vis a vis desperate acts in desperate times, but there are many more layers to that onion than the surface that you speak of. I've worked in clubs, I've known quite a few girls who use the trade as a ways and means of getting finances.

There are girls in dance clubs who strip and are prostitutes on the side. they are in it for the money. the money can be outstanding. I would also say there are some in it who are mentally unstable and unable to forge a different life for themselves. Does this mean we should deny them the mechanism of survival regardless of how we may view it from or p.o.v moralistically?

It's a perspective issue if you want to call your own morality into it and the sensationalized stories that come out of the red light areas of many a city.

My best advice is to look to those countries where it is legal and goverened and regulated.

I would also ask you to take a look at places like Nevada in the states where a girl can work a place like the bunny ranch, make a couple of grand american in an evening for a few hours of sexual activity.

Any profession will have its people within it that are oppressed and feel used and have no way out. To blanket the field of prostitution as such is to not look at it for what it truly is.

I disagree with your point of view, but I accept that there are factors you have implicated that are true. Those factors I would suggest would be significantly diminished by a different stance on the matter as indicated. IE remove the criminal element. Also, some may say apples and oranges, but what about the porn industry? From a puritan moralistic standpoint, it is no different. Legitimate porn on the other hand is an socially accepted multi billion dollar industry that less inhibited folks are making good bank in and are not druggies, pimped or otherwise. Free agents for the most part, doing what they like to do and getting paid lots for it.

If prostitution was given the same shake instead of being chased into the shadows by a bunch of f@cking hypocritical d1cks, the problems you associate with it would be decimated quickly.

[Radhnoti]

MasterKiller - "Why should the government be able to tell them they can't trade something that is truly theirs?"

Amen to that.

Isn't there an almost incalculable number of people "forced" into their situation? What about the girl working for minimum wage at McDonalds? Wasn't she "forced" in the same way into working there? Not enough education/opportunity/experience or whatever...

I have to agree with KL...er...David Jamieson, it's a societal enforcement of a puritanical ideal


Government regulation/interference with almost ANYTHING makes things worse.

Wow, just agreed with MK and DJ...I'm showing the liberal side of my libertarian ideals I suppose...

[Ben Gash]

Jamieson, I'm a healthcare worker, remember? You only need to watch one of the myriad documentaries on the moonlight bunny ranch to see that those girls are exploited on many levels, they just get paid well and have a nice place to work in (as mentioned earlier). As for porn, well that's a whole other ball game, but really these issues are far bigger than we can meaningfully discuss here.
Masterkiller, what is it with americans and this issue? One purpose of democratic government is to protect it's people from exploitation. You complain loudly enough when they fail in this.
Jamieson, yet again showing typically liberal characteristics of making personal insults against people who hold a different viewpoint than yourself. A shame really as I'd fight and die for your right to express yours. The tyrranny of liberalism eh

[David Jamieson]

Jamieson, I'm a healthcare worker, remember? You only need to watch one of the myriad documentaries on the moonlight bunny ranch to see that those girls are exploited on many levels, they just get paid well and have a nice place to work in (as mentioned earlier). As for porn, well that's a whole other ball game, but really these issues are far bigger than we can meaningfully discuss here.
Masterkiller, what is it with americans and this issue? One purpose of democratic government is to protect it's people from exploitation. You complain loudly enough when they fail in this.
Jamieson, yet again showing typically liberal characteristics of making personal insults against people who hold a different viewpoint than yourself. A shame really as I'd fight and die for your right to express yours. The tyrranny of liberalism eh

Uh, relax Gash. I don't recall personally insulting you. Where are you getting that from? I am saying that the persecution and driving into the shadows of prostitues IS the problem, not prostitution itself.

No need to get all hot under the collar. And that's great that you're a health care worker, but my question was how many of these girls do you actually know?

Also, since when is being liberal minded a bad thing? I find it better than adhereing to fascist or puritan attitudes.

[PangQuan]

Prostitution is one of the oldest professions known to human kind.

I have never "purchased" a prostitute and never will, but. if you get them off the street, regulate, lay down laws and rules, it will no doubt lessen the risks assosiated with this type of activity.

NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO THERE WILL ALWAYS BE PROSTITUTES. If you truly care an ounce about these abused and cornered women, you would support legalization, because it WOULD improve their situation within prostitution.

Im not here to argue, this is just common sense. Really sit there and think about it.

betty is on the corner getting beaten by her john. remove his ass put her in a brothel with a state approved "boss" and things would change for betty. she will still be a hooker, but wont be in the same exact situation. regulations and routine checks and compliances can make a BIG difference.

No matter how much you dissaprove of prostitution or the legalization of it, will not change how things work.

[mantis108]

I agreed with SPJ that "Porn", which I prefer the term Adult Entertainment, is different from prositution IMHO. Note that the keyword here is ADULT. Being 21 or even 50 years of age for that matter don't automatically make a person ADULT.

The idea that the sex trade in general is bad and sinful is pretty much a North American Puritan Complex hyprocrisy. The truth is all about the tax dollars and the power over property of men (women in general). Those are the things law makers usually (sorry old ****) males or (dried up old prume) females are after. They can't get it up in the first place so it's no matter to them one way or the other. :eeks:

In North America, why is it okay to buy drug to poison your own body but you have no right to make some money with your body? Aren't the Star pronifying themselves? Isn't that fact that your buying gifts, meals and even opening an bank account/credit card for your "girlfriend" or wife for that matter an attempt to buy sex from her? Technically speaking no one show have sex at all whether it is for procreation or recreation under those conditions. These are personal choice and decision. So one is okay one not? [Why am I seeing Armish paradise?]

DJ has a point that the money that the girls make are pretty impressive.

If we charge the drug trade and the sex trade with the same standard that everyone involve buyers, sellers, users all guilt as hell, I can guarantee you at least half of those Law makers and politicians (like they don't ponify themselves to get your vote) would be in jail.

Morality is a human condition it's all relative. It's all spin doctors' BULL Crapola.

Mantis108

[lkfmdc]

May I be the first one to state the f-in truest of the true

Men, whether you want to realize it or not, you "pay" for sex... it just isn't always as direct as "prostitution" but "sex" has always been an economy and always will be.....

[Mortal1]

Just kill the hooker when your done=not paying. Is that wrong?

[SimonM]

In true Canadian liberal fashion you miss the point Kung Lek

Ben I think you miss an important point: If prostitutes are the victims why do we arrest them? If prostitution is decriminalized it helps to ameliorate the most harmful aspects of prostitution. For instance: if a prostitute can go to the police when harrassed she has a bit more protection against pimps. By moving prostitutes into the criminal sub-culture it makes them targets of further victimization.

Yeah, giving fat businessmen blowjobs is probably not their idea of a great business plan.

However who is a worse victim?

A prostitute who willingly plys her trade and keeps the money?

or

A prostitute who will be beaten by her pimp and possibly killed if she doesn't get enough johns and who then turns all her money over to the psychotic thug who treats her as his slave?

Legalize prostitution and you will get more in category 1 and fewer in category 2. I'm not saying it will end pimping. It will just make it a bit easier to escape from these *******s.

Oh and Ben: Before you try to use the word Liberal to categorize me remember I am a socialist. That is a different political philosophy from liberalism.

[Mel]

And THAT is exactly why prostitution will always be "wrong." Yes, we all know Mortal1 was kidding. At least we hope so. But the fact that such a joke could be made is quite telling: that the sex trade worker's life is worth so little, is so meaningless, that killing her is "funny." She is not even a human being. She is a used paper towel, to toss out when you're done with it. Geesh.

But getting back to the topic , I think people get shocked when they read a story like that because most of us tend to put our shufus on a pedestal. We expect "more" out of them. We even idolize them. Then when they disappoint us, we feel betrayed and become judgmental. Of course, they are only human too. And yet.....if you're going to be in the position of shufu, shouldn't you be modeling exemplary behavior? But then, what is exemplary behavior? Ack! Back to the same discussion!

Mel

[Mel]

Simon, prostitutes ARE victims. But you are right: we do arrest them. Why? Because the system is run, for the most part, by the same people (sex) committing the crimes.

[Ben Gash]

Simon, in the very next sentence I advocated prosecution of johns and pimps. These after all are the real offenders.
David, a general social liberalism is a generally good thing. However, increasingly in the last decade we have seen the rise of a smug, superior and very agressive politically correct "liberalism" amongst people from a certain middle class educated background. This type of liberalism takes an extremely permissive (liberal and permissive are not the same) view and treats anyone who does not agree as hypocritical ****heads.
At the end of the day, if your 18 year old daughter came home from seeing a careers counsellor and said "mom, dad, I wanna be a hooker" would you be in favour? No? Why not? That disquiet is there for a reason.

[Ben Gash]

And yes, I've met many sex workers through my work.
Ross, actually I'd say that I've never paid for sex in any way, except maybe at an extremely abstract level. For me sex is simply a physical manifestation of my emotional relationship. If I buy my wife a gift it's certainly not with any expectation of physical reward (I'm sure you've found in your own marriage that there really isn't a reliable correlation anyway). Emotional genuiness is usually the best way to get sex

[David Jamieson]

David, a general social liberalism is a generally good thing. However, increasingly in the last decade we have seen the rise of a smug, superior and very agressive politically correct "liberalism" amongst people from a certain middle class educated background. This type of liberalism takes an extremely permissive (liberal and permissive are not the same) view and treats anyone who does not agree as hypocritical ****heads.

At the end of the day, if your 18 year old daughter came home from seeing a careers counsellor and said "mom, dad, I wanna be a hooker" would you be in favour? No? Why not? That disquiet is there for a reason.

Your view of the left of centre is a bit sweeping. smug? superior? aggressive political correctness? a 'certain' background? I don't know where you're getting your stats from Ben. I don't think the social compact as it stands is the greatest but at least it is something and if it isn't flexible and changeable according to the zeitgeist then it is no longer a social compact.

By the way, there is some good to be said about the core of political correctness. It perpetuates memes that break down barriers of racism, sexism and otherwise undesirable traits of our society that were contrary to these behaviours prior to this. It also comes with it's own set of folly. I think the good outweighs the bad, but I understand how goofy it can get.

Now, seeing as your last question is hypothetical, then let's say my hypothetical answer to it assumes that being a hooker is a career choice that is sound, profitable, safe, legal etc etc. And considering the fact that she is 18 years old, I would have to accept her decision. She may be my daughter, but I don't own her I don't own her victories or failures. She owns that decision. If it doesn't work out, I am there to help. It's perspective.