Katrina devastated the south, gas 6 $ a gallon

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It is appropriate and much needed to call to task the failure of Gov't to respond to this disaster.. we can pretend that everything's okay and let it happen again, OR.. we can make it so hot that it will never happen again..

4 days after the impact there was still no organized presence, the Salvation Army was ahead of the G'ovt..

Tuesday mid-day, the executive office of the federal Gov't should have ordered immediate airlifts of food and water to the area.. we have the means and ability to have made it so by Wed. morning.. This nations leader should have made an executive decision and over-ridden any obstacle to getting basic life sustaining supplies to those unfortunate people.. mobilized every available delivery system (mainly helicopters), staged at public and private distribution centers, written vouchers for commandeered goods, and delivered the goods.. To use red-tape as an excuse to validate this debacle is pathetic..

Gang and race arguements have no place here.. regardless of their race or religion, the people of N.O. were abandoned.. they are people first, our brothers and sisters.. save their lives THEN worry about the rest..

To imply that anyone is blaming anyone for the hurricane is too lame to consider replying to.. it is a natural event.. one that could occur at almost any time.. it could happen again next week.. No, people are demanding accountability for indecision and chaos.. the leader failed to lead.. this is when a leader is needed most, it is when they rise to the task, or stumble.. It must be clear that this must never happen again..

Be well..

[MonkeySlap Too]

Bob,
The feds can't tell the state government what to do with the national gaurd unless invited to do so. The simple fact is the mayor of New Orleans and the Govenor of LA screwed the pooch BIG time. Both in poor planning, and even worse execution. The feds have taken over - but too late. I would have preferred them to run roughshod over these morons earlier, but I can only imagine the crying that we'd hear then.

Face it - the mayor failed (buses that could have been used top evacuate are under water) and the governor failed to declare martial law until days after the event, unlike Missisippi or Alabama.

The behavior of the people however, is disgusting. Americans seem to have lost any ense of self-responsibility and sense of community, every one cries for a government nanny to take care of them. If you expect the government to take care of you, you get what you deserve.

[ZIM]

No, TCB, people did point fingers and they still are. And if the self-selected black leadership [Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, et al.] are going to open the debate on race, then damm it, it's high time we had that talk. No taking it back.

Here's what a lot of people are taking away from the events in New Orleans:

In the face of this disaster the poor and black of New Orleans - for we are incessantly reminded that it was they who were left in the city when the storm came - had an opportunity to show the world who they could be. They had an opportunity to pull together as a community; as a people. They had an opportunity to show that being poor and black does not mean that one has a poor spirit or a black heart. They had the opportunity to, with all the world watching, shatter stereotypes like so many broken windows. They had the opportunity to show that left to their own devices, without the protection or coercion of a larger society, that they would rise to the occasion, care for themselves and others, keep order, and stay strong in the face of hardship.

And they failed.

Now, I don't agree with that - but that's what an awful lot of people are going to think about it: That all their fears about race were justified.

I'm just saying enough's enough & it's time to talk & heal. Don't play that card unless it's true, absolutely 100% true. And, yes, that's exactly why I'm accusing those 'leaders' of it.

[cam]

Wow Zim, if a lot of people are taking that impression in your country, then you guys are screwed!
The fact is, they all knew that the levees could not endure a force 4 Hurricane, the levees would breech and the city would be flooded, they've known that for several years!
So where was the co-ordination between city, state and federal governments?
From what is quite evident, there was no co-ordination, a complete failure, to blame this on the Mayor or Governor is short-sighted and wrong! Oh, they will get the share of the blame but this was a monumental screw-up!

[ZIM]

Wow Zim, if a lot of people are taking that impression in your country, then you guys are screwed!
The fact is, they all knew that the levees could not endure a force 4 Hurricane, the levees would breech and the city would be flooded, they've known that for several years!
So where was the co-ordination between city, state and federal governments?
From what is quite evident, there was no co-ordination, a complete failure, to blame this on the Mayor or Governor is short-sighted and wrong! Oh, they will get the share of the blame but this was a monumental screw-up!

I agree entirely. Both points.
My family is ~30% black, mixed. This is boiled-down & representative of some of the conversations we've had ever since my teenaged half-sister responded to a news report on TV saying 'dam, whitey ain't your savior, b1tch!'

And, like I said, I don't agree with it. I know I'd be out there looting too. My problem is with the leadership, the criminals of course, and to a certain amount with the media.

[Fallout]

People don't like to take responsibility for their own behavior. When Bill Cosby criticised inner city blacks for poor behavior, people just shouted him down. Being black is a prequesite to speaking out against poor behavior by blacks, and if anyone in politics even suggest that blacks are responsible for their situation and behavior, they will not be elected.

It's time to stop playing the victum, and step and and take responsiblity. Stop relying on other people to bail you out and pay you wel-fare. Stop criticising people who are risking their lives to save you. Stop having sex with 10 different people each month, support your own kids instead of relying on others to pay your wel-fare.

The government is here to govern, not hold your hand, put you in jobs, and make you wealthy. That's up to YOU. Go out there, call companies, send them your resume, get an interview. Don't have college? Get a job, and work your way though college. It's not easy, but people do it. If you want a good job you have to be proactive. Oppurtunity doesn't come to you. You have to come to it.

Or you can just take the easy way out. Join a gang, sell drugs for fast cash. Beat people to an inch of their life and leave them dying in the street. Just don't blame others for your behavior.

[Wood Dragon]

http://www.philly.com/mld/miamiheral...n/12505019.htm

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

ZIM: Although i am deeply concerned with the plight of the black people, i am more concerned with a government that uses that plight to its advantage.. to use the situation of poverty and lack of means as justification for the situation where the poor and unfortunate are all that's left in N.O.... When clearly it was known that the city could not withstand a Cat4 storm, and clearly it was inevitable that it would happen.. it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you can't evacuate N.O. completely in 48 hours..

The feds can't tell the state government what to do with the national gaurd unless invited to do so. The simple fact is the mayor of New Orleans and the Govenor of LA screwed the pooch BIG time. Both in poor planning, and even worse execution. The feds have taken over - but too late. I would have preferred them to run roughshod over these morons earlier, but I can only imagine the crying that we'd hear then.

Here's an old saying for this situation.. "better to ask for forgiveness later than permission now".. that was the direct fault of the national leadership.. none of our laws were so set in stone as to interfere with saving lives in a national emergency.. none of the founding fathers would have supported committees and meetings trying to figure out the proper channels to render aid.. as a people we are ALL responsible for each other, we the people have been so complacent for so long that we don't even realize how much counter-productice BS there is in the simple act of saving lives..

No more than 36-48 hours after impact the president should have called the JCS (Joint Chiefs of Staff) and said "let nothing hinder the delivery of food and water to the survivors in the most expedient manner possible". no governors, no mayors, nobody!! In what twisted fantasy world is it considered okay to watch people die while leaders work out red-tape issues for saving them..

The government is all too ready to let the impoverished stay right where they are, they serve a purpose.. they do the jobs no one else wants to.. Suppose we closed the borders, no immigrants.. suppose we actually raised the standards of minorities, actually educated them and employed them fairly.. who would do the dirty work? It is an orchestrated caste system designed to appear upwardly mobile.. but now, the system is paying for its sins, the bottom of the caste has formed its own government of gangs and organized crime syndicates.. some of the police are as corrupt as the criminals, often forming aliances for profit.. when there is no hope for rising above the poverty level it is reasonable to assume people will find some way to improve their condition.. there is a great gulf between the bottom of the heap and the top of the mountain.. and history is littered with fallen bureaucracies, toppled by the same bottom of the heap.. More value should be placed on the people willing to the "dirty work", a sincere appreciation of their work and the effort they put forth to keep the system functioning.. imagine if the doctors and lawyers and politicians had to cook and clean and fend for themselves.. if they had to clean their own offices and their own toilets.. i think we put too little value on the services we would rather not do..

They had an opportunity to show that being poor and black does not mean that one has a poor spirit or a black heart. They had the opportunity to, with all the world watching, shatter stereotypes like so many broken windows. They had the opportunity to show that left to their own devices, without the protection or coercion of a larger society, that they would rise to the occasion, care for themselves and others, keep order, and stay strong in the face of hardship.

Sadly, those same people have spent their lives realizing that that model is reserved for the elite caste.. their idea of "community" is the one in which the system has forced them to fend for themselves.. what we saw in the aftermath of Katrina was people living their experience of "community".. it was the inner city's seething lowest caste showing the world America's embarassing little secret.. it's political slaves.. So, once again, it comes full circle back to the leadership.. Is this nation willing to reward hard work with more than minimum wages (read: sub poverty wages).. i wonder how many CEOs could make it a day on the back of a garbage truck.. maybe the garbage collector can't do the CEO's job, but i don't think the CEO could do his either..

This nation needs leadership that has the vision of unity and prosperity for its people, rather than perpetuating more cogs for the machine.. the machine will reorganize itself in a more productive and efficient manner if given the opportunity.. but, it is constantly maintained as an out-dated model..

"When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary...."

Be well..

[SPJ]

Other states helping out.

helping out

[themeecer]

that was the direct fault of the national leadership.. none of our laws were so set in stone as to interfere with saving lives in a national emergency

So the mayor had nothing to do with it eh? How can he be expected to make such hard choices as using the existing bus system to bus citizens out? But since there is a republican in office, lets blame the national government.

when there is no hope for rising above the poverty level it is reasonable to assume people will find some way to improve their condition

BULL!! Poverty is never a reason to resort to crime, never. Growing up as a small child my family had it very hard. There was many times we didn't know where the next meal was coming from. Sometimes we didn't have heat in the winter and I slept between my parents to keep me from freezing in the night. We put bottled items in the fridge versus the cupboard to prevent them from freezing and bursting. And you know what, never did we have to resort to crime. Heck we didn't even have to go on government assistance. We made do. My parents pulled themselves up from their boot straps and have now built a comfortable life.

Is this nation willing to reward hard work with more than minimum wages (read: sub poverty wages)..

Only if this nation is willing to close many small businesses and eliminate many jobs. This way instead of working for minimum wage these workers will be standing in the unemployment line. While on the subject, where in the constitution does it say that the government owes anyone a job, or a guaranteed rate of pay?


And I am sorry to be attacking your ideas Tai Chi Bob. I have agreed with you in other threads and do respect you for your longevity in our arts.

People don't like to take responsibility for their own behavior. When Bill Cosby criticised inner city blacks for poor behavior, people just shouted him down. Being black is a prequesite to speaking out against poor behavior by blacks, and if anyone in politics even suggest that blacks are responsible for their situation and behavior, they will not be elected.

It's time to stop playing the victum....

Well this isn't simply a 'black' thing. Here in the impoverished Appalachian region we have the same thing happening with all colors. You made some very good points but I hope your argument isn’t taken as simply a condemnation of blacks, because this mindset is wide spread. I don’t think this should be made into a race thing, even though Kanye West would prefer that it is.

Just the other night I was talking to a gal and she asked me what I did for a living; I told her. When I asked her what she did she literally said “I get a check.” I wanted to respond with, “Oh, so how are you enjoying my hard earned money?”

[ZIM]

Sadly, those same people have spent their lives realizing that that model is reserved for the elite caste.. their idea of "community" is the one in which the system has forced them to fend for themselves.. what we saw in the aftermath of Katrina was people living their experience of "community".. it was the inner city's seething lowest caste showing the world America's embarassing little secret.. it's political slaves..

No. That's your interpretation of social rot.

Reality: We saw women with kids who had no fathers present for those kids, starving without protection in filth. We saw young, healthy, strong men brutalizing the weak. We saw folks who were strung out & looting pharmacies for a fix. We saw signs for help written by functionally illiterate people. We saw houses burned for no reason in the middle of hell on earth.
Don't make excuses for social pathology, you're doing no one any good. I'll agree with you on this: Something is deeply wrong. Where we part is that I know that black community is a very rich, very close thing in its traditional form. I know those events were a complete betrayal of that community. Making excuses for it increases that betrayal. Unless you're saying they like it that way, which I doubt very much.

Don't get me wrong: I'm sorrier than anything that this rot had to come out then & there, and I'm really sorry that anybody felt they had to play the race card to be listened to. They didn't have to. Being a human being in distress should be enough to merit help, don't you think? I'm also sure there was heroism and self-sacrifice we haven't even begun to hear about yet. That community can show both higher and lower standards than the majority white populace at the same time.

And effin' A, they should've been evacuated earlier. The Governor & Mayor had that responsibility, the funds were available before the storm hit. Mississippi was hit hard too - in fact they caught the eye of Katrina and the entire state was affected - and nobody expected that to happen. But they had plans in place and they got right to 'em. Louisiana did not.

[SPJ]

Some newswire just reported that the NATO HQ was requested by the US goverment to help in transport and logistic support in N.O. disaster area in addition to food supplies.

[FuXnDajenariht]

did this happen in south east asia last year during the tsunami?!

"Police and National Guard troops on Saturday closed down the two centers -- the Superdome arena and the city's convention center -- but then penned in the storm victims outside in sweltering heat to keep them from trying to walk out of the city.

Military helicopters and buses staged a massive evacuation to take away thousands of people who waited in orderly lines in stifling heat outside the flooded convention center.

The refugees, who were waiting to be taken to sports stadiums and other huge shelters across Texas and northern Louisiana, described how the convention center and the Superdome became lawless hellholes beset by rape and murder.

Several residents of the impromptu shantytown recounted two horrific incidents where those charged with keeping people safe had killed them instead.

In one, a young man was run down and then shot by a New Orleans police officer, in another a man seeking help was gunned down by a National Guard soldier, witnesses said.

Police here refused to discuss or confirm either incident. National Guard spokesman Lt. Col Pete Schneider said "I have not heard any information of a weapon being discharged."

"They killed a man here last night," Steve Banka, 28, told Reuters. "A young lady was being raped and stabbed. And the sounds of her screaming got to this man and so he ran out into the street to get help from troops, to try to flag down a passing truck of them, and he jumped up on the truck's windshield and they shot him dead."

Wade Batiste, 48, recounted another tale of horror.

"Last night at 8 p.m. they shot a kid of just 16. He was just crossing the street. They ran him over, the New Orleans police did, and then they got out of the car and shot him in the head," Batiste said.

The young man's body lay in the street by the Convention Center's entrance on Saturday morning, covered in a black blanket, a stream of congealed blood staining the street around him. Nearby his family sat in shock.

A member of that family, Africa Brumfield, 32, confirmed the incident but declined to be quoted about it, saying her family did not wish to discuss it. But she spoke of general conditions here.

"There is rapes going on here. Women cannot go to the bathroom without men. They are raping them and slitting their throats. They keep telling us the buses are coming but they never leave," she said through tears.

People here said there were now 22 bodies of adults and children stored inside the building, but troops guarding the building refused to confirm that and threatened to beat reporters seeking access to the makeshift morgue.

People trying to walk out are forced back at gunpoint - something troops said was for their own safety. "It's sad, but how far do you think they would get," one soldier said.

"They have us living here like animals," said Wvonnette Grace-Jordan, here with five children, the youngest only six weeks old. "We have only had two meals, we have no medicine and now there are thousands of people defecating in the streets. This is wrong. This is the United States of America."

One National Guard soldier who asked not to be named for fear of punishment from his commanding officer said of the lack of medical attention at the center, "They (the Bush administration) care more about Iraq and Afghanistan than here."

The Louisiana National Guard soldier said, "We are doing the best we can with the resources we have, but almost all of our guys are in Iraq."

Across town at the Superdome, where as many as 38,000 refugees camped out until Wednesday night when evacuation buses first came, the 4,000 still there were corralled outside, hoping to get on four waiting buses with seats for only 200.

The scene at the sports stadium was one of abject filth. Crammed into a small area after the building was shut to them last night, those remaining sat amid heaps of garbage, piled in places waist high. The stench of human waste pervaded the interior of the now vacant stadium.

One police officer told Reuters there were 100 people in a makeshift morgue at the Superdome, mostly people who died of heat exhaustion, and that six babies had been born there since last Saturday, when people arrived to take shelter.

At the arena, too, there was much talk of bedlam after dark.

"We found a young girl raped and killed in the bathroom," one National Guard soldier told Reuters. "Then the crowd got the man and they beat him to death."

[FuXnDajenariht]

Sept. 4) - Katrina may seem like the last word in hurricanes, but there is a very real possibility that another major hurricane may hit New Orleans or some other portion of the 200-mile coastline devastated by Katrina in the weeks to come.


"We're not out of the woods yet," said Susan Cutter, director of the University of South Carolina Hazards Research Laboratory. "We're not even in the height of hurricane season."

A forecast released Friday by meteorologists at Colorado State University calls for six more hurricanes by the time the hurricane season ends on Nov. 30, three of them Category 3 or above. On average, about one major hurricane in three makes landfall in the United States.

"We expect that by the time the 2005 hurricane season is over, we will witness tropical cyclone activity at near record levels," the Colorado State meteorologists wrote.

So far there have been four hurricanes this year -- Katrina, Irene, Emily and Dennis, a Category 3 storm that caused more than $1 billion in damage to the Florida panhandle in July. There have been nine tropical storms.

That puts this season's tropical cyclone activity to date above the average for an entire year, the Colorado State forecast noted. In a more normal year, Mother Nature has produced about a third of her annual allotment of hurricanes and tropical storms by this point in the season.

No major storms currently threaten the U.S. coastline. The latest report from the National Weather Service mentions only Tropical Storm Maria.

"Maria could be near hurricane strength by Sunday," said Jack Beven, a meteorologist at the National Hurricane Center in Miami.

The storm is not currently expected to reach the U.S. mainland.

The number and intensity of hurricanes is largely determined by water temperatures at the sea surface. This year the waters of the tropical Atlantic, Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico are about as warm as they ever get.

If a major hurricane were to make landfall somewhere on the U.S. coast in the next two months, with the situation in Louisiana and Mississippi still demanding such a large portion of the nation's emergency management resources, mounting another relief effort would certainly be more difficult than usual. But as Florida demonstrated when four hurricanes passed through the state in seven weeks last year, repeated storms are not necessarily unmanageable.

"It would be a challenge, but I don't think it would be catastrophic," Cutter said.

And in many respects another hurricane in the area already devastated by Katrina would only add insult to injury.

"It sounds horrible, but it may not be that bad," Cutter said. "The sad thing is that most of the damage has already been done."

But in New Orleans itself, any violent weather threatens to expand the gaping holes that Katrina opened in the city's flood control infrastructure.

"Even a tropical storm I think would wreak havoc," said Joannes Westerink, a civil engineer at the University of Notre Dame who produces computer simulations of storm surges for the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, the Federal Emergency Management Agency and other clients.

Even the daily tidal flows of Lake Pontchartrain threaten to aggravate the conditions left by Hurricane Katrina, he said.

Westerink said he and his colleagues have started working on simulations depicting the effects of a hurricane on the New Orleans levee system in its current state. They expect to have a complete picture in a few days of what another hurricane could do to the city.

New Orleans also remains vulnerable to a Mississippi River flood brought on by heavy rains upstream. But the usual flooding season for the river is spring and early summer."


and i dont see why this is so complicated. the mayor is part of national leadership. N.O. isn't some kind of foreign country. if he doesn't have the resources to protect the people in his state then he its his duty to ask for aid from the feds. if the feds see that the local government is incompetent and that their gonna cause needless deaths they have no choice but to override the mayor or governor or whoever. its not even up for debate. so theres plenty of blame to go around in my opinion. the feds and the local government has to work together to keep us safe. thats their job, thats why we pay taxes to both. its not some kind of ****ing contest. there shouldn't even be an argument about local and national governments. its all part of one ****ing country.

[ZIM]

On topic, surprisingly