Challeneged Emin Boztepe this Sat.

[YMC]

In the end, I have to say the man has power and technique. It was wise for him not to fight me because with all his students their he'd have to hold nothing back, and I didn't go there with the camera to lose. It probabaly would have left someone, if not both of us, injured. I don't feel I was good enough yet to take him out cleanly, that I would have eaten something for my efforts.

Doesn't this statement pretty much back up the logic used by some of the Sifu that you challenged (e.g Sifu Parrella) as you relate below..."

Now, this was different than some folks who say they're worried about insurance and being sued.

From a third party view of what has been said over these many months (coming from me, a general forum lurker and a person with no ambition to fight and in fact spend most of my time avoiding them), it seems that while people like Sifu Ross actually accepted your challenge with the stipulation that chances of injury be minimized (which frankly seems to a logical and prudent thing to do), Sifu Boztepe expertly avoided one by stroking your ego a little. In the end this says more about your path then it does of either men don't you think? You say things like:

My interest in you is not for building my reputation, it is to close this matter. Sport is sport. Fighting is demolish the other man or be demolished.

If you truely believe in the last sentence, then why would you say "It probabaly would have left someone, if not both of us, injured. I don't feel I was good enough yet to take him out cleanly, that I would have eaten something for my efforts." Isn't dealing with the injuries part of true fighting? I don't fight because I realize that for the most I'd be the person eating the floor and I can't afford to deal with injuries because of my profession (And I say this as a person with not an unsizable ego).

I guess I don't really know who you are, but since you have posted these things in a public forum, I guess it isn't unreasonable or inappropriate for someone to point out some inconsistancies in your arguements as one sees them.

[Ray Pina]

I posted what I posted because a) I thought folks would find it interesting due to Mr. Boztepe's reputation and B) Because I felt he deserved the positive feedback.

As for fighting and injuries, they do happen. I've been lucky that since training with my master my body has changed a bit and I seem more resilient .... some injuries have actually healed.

But, more importantly is my master's motto: Don't go fight someone, go beat them.

I have to say, I'm not sure I could have gotten a victory over Mr. Boztepe without "fighting", incurring some damage..... just the feeling I got. In fact, he could have beaten me. Hard to say without fighting.

What I do not want to do though is face someone I have had disagreements with and have all these obstacles between us. If we are going to fight we should fight and do it right. We're not kids at a tournament. We're men. If you're going to say something, even over the safety of the internet, know you can be called on it.

When one grown martial artist puts down another he should be ready to face that man bear knuckle. If he's not comfortable with that, he should speak more softly, not be so orrogant, not be so quick to call someone out.

I don't know. Right or wrong that is my feeling on the matter.

[shaolinboxer]

HAHA! As we age, we all become confidence men.

Ray, you might have kicked his butt, and he feared you as he would fear a younger version of himself.

Can't fault a man for being wise.

[lkfmdc]

The more you post, the more I feel I have proved my point. Challenges are stupid and achieve nothing...

You will believe whatever it is you WANT to believe... you think I "just" produce San Da fighters, the numerous awards my people have won in kickboxing, boxing, Muay Thai, submission grappling and mixed martial arts you either ignore or manage not to be conscious of.....

Simply put, you want to put me in a box checked "sport" but the reality is, we are about fighting, period...

Guys like Chris Jurak who trained with me YEARS ago, will tell you two things;

1. We've always been about fighting

and

2. I've had more than my share of "no rules" brawls...

But after 10 or 12 of them, probably more than 99% of this board has by the way, I can tell you, they end up meaning nothing, because once they are done, there's another guy waiting next week for another one.

No matter how many times I"ve closed the doors and done one of those, it's never put money in my pocket, sent my wife on vacation, or made the trolls go away....

Simply put, it's a waste of my time. Who am I? To paraphrase an old Chinese saying, If you don't know, why should I bother telling you?

[Ray Pina]

I'm sorry. I thought I was speaking to someone else all along.

I play chess because I'm a chess player. Someone wants to play with me I ablidge them to see if I can handle their technique and strategy and if not why I failed. I don't think about how I can gain financially from it, unless we are playing for money but that just makes it more interesting between two guys who are close in skill.

I'm the same way with martial arts. If someone wants to play I'll play for the love of it, the challenge. Not him challenging me. Me challenging myself.

Does my training allow me to enter into the situation feling safe and secure? Has my experience given me the tools that I'll need for this individual? That's it. That's the reason.

If you have done all of this in the past that is great. But why have you retired so soon? You are still a young man, especially by Chinese martial arts standars.

As far as your student's, it's great. I respect what you're doing for them. But I hope you are preparing them for a lifetime of competive training. Allowing them to compete against the young when they are old, the big when they are small. This is martial art.

That's your business -- your fighters. And I wish you well, really. Like I said, I put all that behind us.

[chud]

Well the guy he challenged did the exact same thing to another, famously, in the past.

Again, just to be clear, Boztepe did it because Cheung had insulted his master, and pretty much every other master in the Wing Chun community.

[fa_jing]

that's an oversimplification. The attack had alot to do with a financial conflict of interest between Cheung's school and and LT's school in that they were going after the same student base, and also with Boztepe making a name for himself. To act like W. Cheung had thrown down some kind of gross insult that would justify a "forced challenge" meaning fighting him after he refused to fight, is bullsh!t.
All Cheung and LT did was cast aspersions over who had the best fu and the closest relationship to Yip Man. And why? Looking for more students in their space, that's why. No body's mother was insulted, know what I mean?

That's why I said that Ray should have asked Boztepe if he thought Tai Chi could be taught without forms, and if he answered no, just popped him in his eye.

Young Boztepe >> Old Boztepe

[rogue]

Old Boztepe >> Smarter >> Young Boztepe

The further this thread goes the more I'm impressed with how Emin handled the situation. By using his head and a little charm he has a challenger talking him up, and the challenger left feeling good about himself. So with a little effort he diffused an awkward situation, did his seminar and looks good to everyone. You can tell that Boztepe has been in this spot many times before. I wonder how much he regrets the WC incident and knowing what he knows now if he'd do it again.

Ray, which styles have you been doing the challenge matches against? Which ones were the toughest?

[David Jamieson]

That Turkish B@stard!

Turns out he's a sissy after all

Best line from the emin vs william

"d@mn these floors are slippy" and "My shoes, my shoes! These stupid cotton shoes!"

Most notable technique "the flail" and the "fall over".

almost as revealing of skill as teh macao matchup.

[SAAMAG]

Personally, this whole thread is silly.

Has anyone really read any of this?!

[David Jamieson]

Personally, this whole thread is silly.

Has anyone really read any of this?!

no...it was too long and the spelling was atrocious.

I don't have time for this crap!

who invited me here anyway?

[FuXnDajenariht]

gimme sum of what ur on dave

[chud]

that's an oversimplification. The attack had alot to do with a financial conflict of interest between Cheung's school and and LT's school in that they were going after the same student base, and also with Boztepe making a name for himself. To act like W. Cheung had thrown down some kind of gross insult that would justify a "forced challenge" meaning fighting him after he refused to fight, is bullsh!t.
All Cheung and LT did was cast aspersions over who had the best fu and the closest relationship to Yip Man. And why? Looking for more students in their space, that's why. No body's mother was insulted, know what I mean?

That's why I said that Ray should have asked Boztepe if he thought Tai Chi could be taught without forms, and if he answered no, just popped him in his eye.

Young Boztepe >> Old Boztepe

Well I disagree. William Cheung's public statements about the superiority of his Wing Chun over everyone else's were very well known, and he pretty much alienated himself from the entire Wing Chun community. I once saw a framed picture of Leung Ting and all the other Wing Chun masters taken at a dinner around the time of "the incident"; it was like a who's who of the Wing Chun world: Wong Shun Leung, Yip Chun, and about 15 other well known Wing Chun masters (in fact, every master I had ever heard of)...however William Cheung was noticably absent from the picture. Why? No one wanted to invite him. A picture is worth 1000 words as they say.
In my opinion it was just a matter of time before someone came gunning for William Cheung; if it hadn't been Boztepe it would have been someone else.
One last thing I'll say about this issue: during the two seminars that I attended with Boztepe (back when I trained Wing Tsun), he never even mentioned the Cheung incident, and I got the impression that it was something that he had put behind him long ago and preferred not to dwell on.
You can believe me or not, I don't care...I have no vested interest in defending Boztepe. I do not train in his schools. Nor do I have any ill will towards William Cheung, he trained with Grandmaster Yip Man and for that reason alone he is due a certain amount of respect. However I say what I say here because it seems to me that too often Boztepe is villified and Cheung comes off as the innocent wounded doe, when in fact there are reasons why things happened the way they did; and all of this is common knowledge among the elders in the Wing Chun community.

[Sifu Darkfist]

I understand the yearning for the old days and the times where a challenge could solve many issues. However, today it has occured to me that any challenge could be a set up or worse. Mr. Pina has experienced a classic and Honorable martial arts experience and was impressed by a gracious Mr. Botzepe. both acted honorably in the end. Today we must face the harsh reality of the death of the honr system and understand that the evolution of martial arts will not allow for good clean challenges, if even for the simple fact that most experts are concentrating on combat/ kill moves and even more of us are putting down the swords and knives for a healthy dose of firearms training. i guess what i am saying is that this challenge was in the right place at the right time any where else and with any other men there might have beeen bloodshed which in the end proves nothing. Simply because even the best fighter can have a bad millisecond and lose an eye or recieve a crushed throat from a swift lucky novice.
im not sure what the answer is other than the overall admittance that we are all subject to the decision of the higher power or luck if you are agnostic. We are all inferior to combat firearms, but we must all continue to train for the moment without and for our longetivity. We all have families and i feel we should all be a family. Leave the Hand to hand for sport or god forbid WAR.

[chud]

We all have families and i feel we should all be a family. Leave the Hand to hand for sport or god forbid WAR.

Well said Darkfist. This issue is a dead horse and I am going to leave it. Onwards and upwards!