Northern Mantis and Taekwondo?

[shirkers1]

Mantis stylist would actively use footwork to go for an opening or evade an incoming attack. I always advocate closing the gap as soon as possible and working from the clinch. Depending on the style, there are mantis styles that have some form of ground fighting. Not extensive as BJJ of course but it's not totally hopeless when it comes to the ground for mantis.

I agree with mantis 108 on this.. the only time I would say not to close the gap to get within grappling range is when you're going up against a much bigger, stronger, grappler. Then you'd want to stick and move. But that is part of the mantis fighters mindset, the ability to size up the comp in battle and fight your fight when you can until you can't.

[Dale Dugas]

Tae Kwon Doe is sport karate no matter how you look at it as shotokan was not the real essence of Okinawan karate as the Mainland Japanese changed what Funakoshi Sensei taught them. Gen. Choi admitted that he learned Shotokan when the Japanese occupied Korea for many years. TKD is not as old as they say. Its post WW2 at best.

No offence, but I have yet to meet a TKD person who has any hands. Very few TKD people have impressed me and those that have, had trained in kung fu, qi gong, or other Chinese arts to get the flow into their art.

My fiancee is a tkd black belt under a very well known old school TKD master here in Boston. She is having her eyes opened everytime we train in Bagua and Qi Gong and nei gong. She is realizing that she was taught something that was based on people being nice to each other and not battle. Going back and forth on line with another as you tap out points on each other is not a martial art, but a martial sport.



In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[Jason Martell]

that is true, it is a sport, however from holding the kicking pad for insturctors you realize that a lot of these guys can literally kick so hard to cause internal damage with only one kick. If they land that first kick, and your ribs break, there is no getting back up.

[Jason Martell]

I agree with mantis 108 on this.. the only time I would say not to close the gap to get within grappling range is when you're going up against a much bigger, stronger, grappler. Then you'd want to stick and move. But that is part of the mantis fighters mindset, the ability to size up the comp in battle and fight your fight when you can until you can't.

the stick and move thing is precisely what I wasy saying about taekwondo

[Brad]

TKD has some potentially great kicks to learn, but there's also usually a lot of extra garbage you have to learn too. Many of the forms are pretty much useless, you won't learn to throw a decent punch, elbow, etc., won't learn grappling (unless the teacher also knows hapkido), and it may also mess up your stance work. And a lot of the one step self defence aps are pretty unrealistic too. It's not something I'd recomend taking formal classes in.

[Jason Martell]

Can somebody tell me the difference between this style of Kung Fu

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=mantisfight

and this one

http://www.mantisquarterly.com/Bung%20bo.mov

i don't know if they are even different styles or not. but looking at the first one made me think it could use some help from taekwondo for certain fight situations, but I don't know about the second one it appears pretty complete

[shirkers1]

They are both mantis... the difference being that one is showing individual aps and the other "bung bo" is part of a two person empty hand form ling side to bung bo.

I've always liked that first video, I like their body linkage when they throw punches etc.

[Jason Martell]

wait a second so are they doing forms or is that free sparring? and there is a ton of mantis styles, that's what I'm wondering are they the same style of Mantis, or different? and how do you guys think these guys would fare to a heavy weight boxer? and would their style still look the same against a heavy weight boxer? would it look so dang cool?

[Jason Martell]

Tae Kwon Doe is sport karate no matter how you look at it as shotokan was not the real essence of Okinawan karate as the Mainland Japanese changed what Funakoshi Sensei taught them. Gen. Choi admitted that he learned Shotokan when the Japanese occupied Korea for many years. TKD is not as old as they say. Its post WW2 at best.

No offence, but I have yet to meet a TKD person who has any hands. Very few TKD people have impressed me and those that have, had trained in kung fu, qi gong, or other Chinese arts to get the flow into their art.

My fiancee is a tkd black belt under a very well known old school TKD master here in Boston. She is having her eyes opened everytime we train in Bagua and Qi Gong and nei gong. She is realizing that she was taught something that was based on people being nice to each other and not battle. Going back and forth on line with another as you tap out points on each other is not a martial art, but a martial sport.



In Boston,

Dale Dugas

The majority of taekwondo schools suck literally. I honestly believe that Taekwondo has the most powerful strikes of any style. If you hold the kicking pad, you will find many blackbelts, who are skinny yet tone, yet their kicks are like hitting someone with a bat. I'm not exagerating. When a power strike is thrown, it will take a half a second before you can throw another one, as oppose to a Kung Fu punch combo where you can throw several punches in one second. However I don't know how well a Kung Fu master could block Heavy weight punches or knock out a heavy weight In a tournament such as Ultimate Fighting. I know that a good Taekwondo black belt could, however if you get the TKD guy into the corner he will get lost in the fury of punches. I know that if a Kung Fu master throws a continous chain of punches TKD wont work well against it because there is no half second inbetween strikes. If a heavy weight throws a punch though that will provide the half second opening the TKD guy is looking for. However TKD is very suspectible to a Jujitsu take down. I'm not saying that TKD is the better martial art, no martial art is any better than any other, they all have different strenghts and weaknesses. I personally think a Heavy Weight Boxer could take either a Kung Fu or TKD blackbelt, unless he knew both, however I think Kung Fu and TKD would both fare better against multiple fighters. I also think that in most situations Kung Fu is the better art to know.

Here is some good TKD, if you pay close attention you will see how hard they can hit, and how far away they hit their opponent. In a sparring match, you can just continue sparring, but if that was real, these gusy would be done fighting after just one hit, which is why I think TKD helps so much for multiple fighters, you take the guy out, and then move far away from where you just were before another guy gets the chance to come up from behind or get in your face.

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=taekwondo

It starts out looking like it's going to be a slide show, but it's not

[Kristoffer]

Jason I think your to caught up in thinking about styles. Like they say, it's not the style it's the practitioner. Sure the style you pick will affect you to a great deal but the choice of style wouldn't determin if you become good at all. How many on-the-toe-bouncing TKD ppl have you seen? I've seen alot. But I know of TKD people who cross train with grappling and train their stuff with muay thai people, and they come out pretty good. And most Mantis I've seen has been pretty lousy and not on the standard of the vids in this thread at all.

Basically, no matter what style you practise. If you train realisticly and cover all ranges, train hard and meet other ppl from other styles to study/share/train, you'll get good. Yes, even Aikido people.


btw does anybody know what/where that mantis school is in the first link he posted? Looks like Hong Kong?

[HanRen]

OMG, TKD is sport Karate??? I've read dozen of books and met with dozen of TKD teachers they all told me that, "TKD is a century old Korean fighting art, you could traces its history back for 4000 years old or more, the story goes like this, one day, bunch of Korean (in ancient time) workers accidantally discovered an old stone carvings, on it, there were men posing with different positions, some with kick, some with punch and some with sparr with another man. then, this art is the mother of Korean martial art, or TKD". Ok this is another story about TKD Iv heard, from a Korean TKD book, "Before WW2, Japan had invaded Korea twice, one time, when the Japanese troops landed on a beach, all the sudden, 500 Korean men charged at the Japanese troops, bare hand, defeat the Japanese Vanguard unite, most amazing thing was, they were all TKD artists. In another story, during WW2, Koreans used Korean art, TKD, that it had saved so many lives of Korean soldiers...etc,..etc". So based on the fact, that TKD is originated from Karate, then all the stories about TKD are BS , perhaps its same thing that some Koreans thinks that Korea has 5-6000 years of history and Confucius is Korean.

[Jason Martell]

Jason I think your to caught up in thinking about styles. Like they say, it's not the style it's the practitioner. Sure the style you pick will affect you to a great deal but the choice of style wouldn't determin if you become good at all. How many on-the-toe-bouncing TKD ppl have you seen? I've seen alot. But I know of TKD people who cross train with grappling and train their stuff with muay thai people, and they come out pretty good. And most Mantis I've seen has been pretty lousy and not on the standard of the vids in this thread at all.

Basically, no matter what style you practise. If you train realisticly and cover all ranges, train hard and meet other ppl from other styles to study/share/train, you'll get good. Yes, even Aikido people.


btw does anybody know what/where that mantis school is in the first link he posted? Looks like Hong Kong?

they actually bounce on the ball of the foot, and sparring fighters from other styles helps dramatically. Yeah you know how to counter a round kick, you've done it a million times, but when you are confronted with an attack you've never seen before you might freeze up. I agree with what you are saying totally.

[Jason Martell]

OMG, TKD is sport Karate??? I've read dozen of books and met with dozen of TKD teachers they all told me that, "TKD is a century old Korean fighting art, you could traces its history back for 4000 years old or more, the story goes like this, one day, bunch of Korean (in ancient time) workers accidantally discovered an old stone carvings, on it, there were men posing with different positions, some with kick, some with punch and some with sparr with another man. then, this art is the mother of Korean martial art, or TKD". Ok this is another story about TKD Iv heard, from a Korean TKD book, "Before WW2, Japan had invaded Korea twice, one time, when the Japanese troops landed on a beach, all the sudden, 500 Korean men charged at the Japanese troops, bare hand, defeat the Japanese Vanguard unite, most amazing thing was, they were all TKD artists. In another story, during WW2, Koreans used Korean art, TKD, that it had saved so many lives of Korean soldiers...etc,..etc". So based on the fact, that TKD is originated from Karate, then all the stories about TKD are BS , perhaps its same thing that some Koreans thinks that Korea has 5-6000 years of history and Confucius is Korean.

all marital arts are sports, that's why you have competitors and tournaments and champions of the sort. a lot of TKD in America sucks. Most schools suck. but a good school with good students does not. I remember watching cops, where this guy was mugged by 3 people. He studied only one martial art taekwondo and he defeated all three people, then called an ambulance and waited for the ambulance and the police to get there, all three of his attackers were on the ground. they were all in their mid 20's and he was like 60. I also remember just rescently on the news in Illinois a 2 degree black belt in TKD accidentally killed a man in self defense. No style sucks, only certain praticers.

[Neophyte]

Hi All

Coming from a TKD background I can says that it is a very rigid art compared to Mantis. I trained TKD for a good 6 years when I was a teenager and now in my thirties still cant get rid of that rgidness after 2 years of Mantis training.

Isnt Mantis a "complete" art so therefore you have all that TKD has to offer and more, even the kicks. If you train your kicks enough then they can be as good if not better than TKD's. Mantis has the turning kick, front kicks and crescent kicks why would you need TKD. Yes it has some very nice flying kicks which I did enjoy performing but of what use are they in the street. You see someone coming at you with a flying kick and you just move out of the way. I think these where actually created for taking men off horseback from what I can remember.
Even the stances are similar to Mantis

As for avoiding their power, instead of blocking the kick straight on why not sidestep and deflect then move into their space ???

With the speed comes power and Mantis is very fast, so if TKD is taking half a second or so to throw a powerful strike what do you think a Mantis practitioner could do being a lot faster and with the same, if not more power.

I was very privaledged to have met Master Lee Kam Wing last week at a seminar and was amazed at his power and speed. The TKD people I new were not even a patch on him. No contest.

In just 2 years training Mantis I believe I have learnt more and improved more that in 6 years of TKD. IMHO Mantis has it all.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Cheers

[Neophyte]

The majority of taekwondo schools suck literally. I honestly believe that Taekwondo has the most powerful strikes of any style. If you hold the kicking pad, you will find many blackbelts, who are skinny yet tone, yet their kicks are like hitting someone with a bat. I'm not exagerating. When a power strike is thrown, it will take a half a second before you can throw another one, as oppose to a Kung Fu punch combo where you can throw several punches in one second. However I don't know how well a Kung Fu master could block Heavy weight punches or knock out a heavy weight In a tournament such as Ultimate Fighting. I know that a good Taekwondo black belt could, however if you get the TKD guy into the corner he will get lost in the fury of punches. I know that if a Kung Fu master throws a continous chain of punches TKD wont work well against it because there is no half second inbetween strikes. If a heavy weight throws a punch though that will provide the half second opening the TKD guy is looking for. However TKD is very suspectible to a Jujitsu take down. I'm not saying that TKD is the better martial art, no martial art is any better than any other, they all have different strenghts and weaknesses. I personally think a Heavy Weight Boxer could take either a Kung Fu or TKD blackbelt, unless he knew both, however I think Kung Fu and TKD would both fare better against multiple fighters. I also think that in most situations Kung Fu is the better art to know.

Here is some good TKD, if you pay close attention you will see how hard they can hit, and how far away they hit their opponent. In a sparring match, you can just continue sparring, but if that was real, these gusy would be done fighting after just one hit, which is why I think TKD helps so much for multiple fighters, you take the guy out, and then move far away from where you just were before another guy gets the chance to come up from behind or get in your face.

http://www.putfile.com/media.php?n=taekwondo

It starts out looking like it's going to be a slide show, but it's not

Very nice vid.

If you notice on the sparring most of the fighters simply drop their hands when kicking, no wonder they they get hit so much.

Some very beautiful aerial kicks there, but can you use them in the street ??? In a crowded place ???

Dont want to dis TKD, it is effective against your typical Joe on the street but against a trained fighter, Im not too sure.

Cheers