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Thread: Ma Bu (Horse Stance) Training

  1. #121
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    Again I cant help but feel your looking for reasons to justify your investment in long lonley hours of stance training.

    Your entitled to your opinion. You don't know much about me, my training background, training habits etc. so you make a lot of assumptions. Not much to be done or said about that.

    But its the muscles that your generate the force,

    ...and the structure that amplifies it.

    and there is no reason that you can not work on posture while doing weights. Why is posture a stance thing? Shouldnt we be working on good posture all the time?

    Not "posture", "THE posture" ie. the stance. There is more to a particular stance than just set your feet paralell and squat down. I'm talking about form. The proper alignment of the lumbars, the appropriate curve of the chest, the tucking of the tail bone, the folding of the pelvis and more. There is no way to use weight training for instance to give you a good san ti shi or in my case, the Baji "ding zhou shi" and my other favorite for supplementary training, the "fu hu zhuang".

    Getting back to your previous coment about "wasted" time. Don't forget we...er . . I am talking about supplementary training. Not the core really. For me it's usually 1 of several cases when I do stance training.

    1. At the end of a long workout. Like on Sundays, I have a 40 minute bike ride followed by a roughly 3 hour practice. At the end of that 3 hours I am typically too tired to keep practicing my other stuff. So to keep going I will often settle for some stance trainng.

    2. When I get interupted in my training and someone needs to talk to me about soimething, I'll keep the low stance while I chat. Or at home it's one of those things you can do when watching TV. I fit it in in those times when I have no space to train like in my office at school between classes or on my lunch break which is 2 hours long. Sometimes I even train in restaurants here. At lunch with Shifu, while we're waiting for other people to arrive or for the servers to show up, just lifting my body weight off the chair. Not enough for everyone to see, just support the weight but leave your but touching the chair.

    3. To correct errors in my form. Find the spot where you lost your balance or felt there was no good power or wherever you think your form needs improving and hold it there for as long as possible. A lot of this happens when getting instruction even in applications. You do the move and teacher yells "freeze!" and starts to make corrections. He might start giving some explanations as well, showing you where you are vulnerable or discussing some potential coutnerattack at this point in the move. So you take it all in but generally don't stand up and relaxe during the lecture part of your class.

    Why would you want to make your self less mobile when fighting taller people?

    If you have done some decent stance work then you won't be less mobile.

    *sigh* but I think you have already made your mind up on this one anyways.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liokault
    Well, if you stop trying to make stupid points, like "a guy doing weights is not going to get stronger" (to miss quote) I will stop trolling (if it is trolling) you.

    Not just a mis quote, a complete fabrication. I can't even tell what post of mine it is supposedly making fun of.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish
    Not just a mis quote, a complete fabrication. I can't even tell what post of mine it is supposedly making fun of.
    Ok, heres part of the paragraph where you deliberatly miss constructed a point about bench pressing to back up your frail grip on the out moded way you train.


    Bench pressing to increase your punching power is an incredibly innefective method. Even pushups are more relevant than benching.
    LOL.. really, what else did you hear?.. did you hear that he was voted Man of the Year by Kung-Fu Magizine?

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish
    Here's the problem with that line of thinking, and this is slightly changing the topic, the chest, of all the parts involved in punching is almost the least important of all. It is barely relevant.
    I was using bench as an example of an exercise that trains the arms (triceps) and shoulders (front deltoid).

    But the pecs are used quite a bit in a hook.

    btw, pushups and bench press are very similar as far as your muscles are concerned. The only difference is most people bench with more weight than they can get from pushups. Yes, there are some differences, but let's not dwell on them. It's very similar.
    Last edited by IronFist; 05-05-2005 at 09:16 PM.
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  5. #125
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    Here, how about you just answer this question for me:

    Assuming the following:

    1. You never use a horse stance in actual combat
    2. SAID

    How then, can any "structure" or anything gained from horse stance training be used in a fight?

    You say it trains your bones/posture/whatever, but if you're not actually using it, what good is training it?

    And about being "rooted." Is being flat footed and sunken into a stance having good root? You're not actually going to be like that in a fight. I don't think that's necessary for generating power. How rooted is a Thai boxer on one foot while kicking? Maybe my definition of "rooting" is wrong, but I'm pretty sure he could be easily knocked over while in that position, yet a Thai kick is arguably the strongest strike known. (No one come in here and say "nuh-uh, a finger strike to the eye is the most damaging" or something. I'm talking about force per square inch generated, not actual damage done. You could poke someone's eye out while roller skating backwards. There's no root there.)
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  6. #126
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    Originally Posted by omarthefish
    Here's the problem with that line of thinking, and this is slightly changing the topic, the chest, of all the parts involved in punching is almost the least important of all. It is barely relevant.
    . . . Wow. Here I was, thinking the pectoralis was responsible for adduction of the arm. Silly me.
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  7. #127
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    They just help you aim Vash. Power comes from the legs and waist. ie. The chest and arm muscles do little more than position the arm correctly for the punch. I must admit I'm fairly stunned that the concept is so foreign considering this is supposed to be a martial arts forum. That's why I was considering that push ups in their way may be more relevant.

    As Ironfist pointed out (this is aimed at your first of the 2 posts here Ironfist), they are very similar in what muscles they use to bench press but with less weight which makes them more of an endurance exercise and you DO need endurance in you arms to keep punching over and over. Plus pushups have the added benifit of working your full body connection in a way that bench press doesn't. Abs, waist, various little stabilizers have to work together to keep your body straight.

    As for the second post, IF I accept your postulate, THEN yeah, no point really. But I have and do use them. Silly me.

    And about being "rooted." Is being flat footed and sunken into a stance having good root?
    No. In fact I posted a couple pages back that I felt the most "rooted" stance was one where you are standing on one leg. Which brings me to your next queestion:

    How rooted is a Thai boxer on one foot while kicking? Maybe my definition of "rooting" is wrong, but I'm pretty sure he could be easily knocked over while in that position, yet a Thai kick is arguably the strongest strike known....
    He could be rooted, or not. Like I just said, IMHO "rooting" has nothing to do with the depth of you stance. It is dynamic. You must have missed my argument several pages back where I was explaining how incredibly easy it is to sweep someone who is standing in a deep "horse stance". I even posted a couple of links to Judoinfo.com to get my point across. "Rooting" ios dynamic. Let's put it this way, in your example, I have seen people who "leap" up into their kicks and if you move forward a bit in the middle you can knock them down. No root. I have also seen round kicks where the kicker steps into the kick instead of pivoting and sinks into it rather than "floating" as he kicks. Both can be very powerfull but the second way is more rooted.

    Almost forgot:
    I don't think that's necessary for generating power.
    Not in absolute terms but VERY helpful. This is not specific to eastern MA either. Check out the old Jack Demspey book or even just slomo some heavyweight fighters. The big hitters tend to stay on their toes but they plant when they punch. Most of them need to.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Incidentally, the SIDE kick or the BACK kick are the "most powerfull". Ironically the thai round kick IS more damaging for just the kinds of reasons you were trying to avoid, targeting, weapon shape and one you didn't mention, it's more of a "strike" IMO whereas side kicks always have more of a push component to them. In strict phsyics terms, way more power available for a back kick.

  8. #128
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    I would have thaugh a flying elbow was the most powerful!

    Lots of force behind it and a small weapon area.......On, but hes jumping so hes not rooted right?
    LOL.. really, what else did you hear?.. did you hear that he was voted Man of the Year by Kung-Fu Magizine?

  9. #129
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    lol yes.

    btw, here's Rocky Marciano vs. Ezzard Charles.

    Classic horse stance: http://img69.photo.163.com/bailewen/.../178036561.jpg

    A couple frames later in the clip, bow stance: http://img69.photo.163.com/bailewen/.../178036535.jpg

    At the moment of impact his foot is flat. In the very next frame his heel comes up again but he's always flat when his fist hits face in that fight.

    Here's another one I liked because it is the "er zi ma" the narrower horse stance taught in Hung Gar's opening sequence for most forms:

    http://img69.photo.163.com/bailewen/.../178036560.jpg

    I like it because he's doing everythiung right, shoulders rounded, pelvise tucked, feet parallel, lumbars pressed out. Excellent Hung Gar right there.

    edit: I got Lewis/Marciano too. Same thing. They both plany their feet flat. No tippy toes for those guys.
    Last edited by omarthefish; 05-05-2005 at 10:06 PM.

  10. #130
    Horse Stance?? I apologize, but what is a "horse stance?" I hear martial artists saying these words regularly. Is this a new martial arts fad phrase? What do people mean when they say, "the horse stance is the first thing you learn?" I thought that the rifle was the first thing...No? I thought that the rifle was the most basic...No? I could be completely wrong here, so if anyone can help me understand I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance.

    TY

  11. #131
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    I have always considered it to be just a contraction of the full name - horse riding stance
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  12. #132
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    When I said bench and pushups were almost the same I wasn't talking about weight. If pushups are with "less weight and more for endurance," then just lower the weight with which you're benching and it will be the same. Yes, the angle is a little different, and there's the abs/legs/stabilze thing but that's negligable and was included in the "little difference" I mentioned. All that stabilizing work won't translate into anything you can really use (other than getting better at pushups).
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  13. #133
    Joe Doe,

    Thank you for your answer, but I still do not understand really.

    Are these guys, like, doing a "horse stance?"

    http://www.sherdog.com/news/pictures.asp?n_id=2668#

    In that 3rd picture from the left, first row, those guys are standing kind of like what peeps have been talking on this thread. In that 4th picture from the left, first row, that guy in the back kind of looks like he is riding a horse. In that 3rd and 4th picture from the left, second row, that guy standing kind of looks like how someone might "stand" while riding a horse. Is this what everyone is talking about? What gives? I still don't understand this, "horse stance"...???

    TY

  14. #134
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    The guy on the left here:

    http://www.sherdog.com/images/pictures/11918.jpg

    That qualifies. The other guy, not really. The other guy is in more of what in Baji, we call a "half horse-half bow".

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish
    But here's the thing, for those punches to have any power you need those stances solid. If you haven't built up sound structure through stance training you are likely to lack power for those punches since you have no good connection to the ground. Simply doing weight training will not train the posture, only the muscles.
    If you engage in long hours of stance training, you will develop sound structure in order to have a good connection to the ground so that your punches will be powerful.

    If you engage in long hours of actually punching, you will develop sound structure in order to have a good connection to the ground so that your punches will be powerful, and you will also develop good punching form.

    I leave it to you to determine which is a more efficient use of time.
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