Ma Bu (Horse Stance) Training

[Liokault]

Have you guys ever taken a vigorous N. Shaolin - style class? You will need Ma Bu training just to get through the class, which involves moving around in low stances and punching, executing techniques etc. Plus, do you want to be concentrating on your shaking/tired legs, or on the technique?

Yeah, thats like my friend the body builder, he does hours of really heavy weights at home so that when he goes to the gym he can lift lighter weights and not look stoopid by sweating and trying hard and stuff

[word of honor]

maybe its stupid to ask but when do u know that your mabu is too wide cause my sifu say that the horse stance should be slightly wider than your shoulders but i have seen others do way more than that. just what i'm getting at is the mobility factor thats all...... thankx

the thing is it takes less work to hold a too-wide horse stance. and if the stance is too wide, it is less mobile generally. and definitely yes paper crane trust your sifu about determining your proper stance. my sifu taught me a way to determine my sei ping ma where you start with feel parallel together and turn out toe heel toe and then heel in line with toe and maybe straight out another inch or two depending on flexibility. every now and again i will check my sei ping ma against this test to be sure i haven't drifted too wide or too narrow

[omarthefish]

So if you're trying to make a point then maybe you should just make it instead of keeping us all in suspense.

Are you just being stubborn or are you really that dense? Or maybe just didn't read the thread from the beggining. (benifit of the doubt and all that.) The POINT is that this statement:

Might I also mention the basic physiology principle called SAID?

Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands

In other words, you get better at what you make your body do, and worse at what you don't do.

Holding a horse stance for long periods of time will make you better at holding a horse stance for long periods of time.

Is irrelecant distracting nonsense. The argument says that there is no point in doing ANY supplementary training like weight training, skipping rope, kicking pads etc. Because after all the only the you will get better at by doing 'x' is doing 'x'. so why bother. . .

I edited out the rest of his post because THAT part made sense.

Also, 7* asked a very pointed question to Lost track's comment:

Also, when you train deep stances, it creates a better kick.

(7*'s quote of the full post on page 4)

Stances do little for kicking. They are one of the lamest ways of all to develope most kicks. Not only Muay Thai but just overall, punching styles in China emphaise stance work far more. Southern shaolin is the low stable one. Northen is higher and more agile.

I make an exception for front stomp kicks since the structure is pretty much the same. Stance work is for punching, throwing and other upper body weapons. Not that you can't "step through" someone elses stance for a good throw but in general it's the solid root and sound structure that you want to ingrain through the stances. Like key points in a dynamic system. You must contain a snapshot of that point in the film of your technique. Hung Gar is filled with transitions between bow and horse and back again. That's where most of the power comes from.

The isometric aspect is even relevant in the aforementioned "SAID" comment. It's at the moment of impact, you will need strong isometric strength/structure for a clean technique.

p.s.

http://judoinfo.com/images/nauta/kouchigake.htm

That wasn't what I was thinking of but it makes my point equally well. Same basic principle. For throws, I have never really learned specific throws like that. I have some basic exercises from Tajiquan I practice a lot. Basically just drilling standing on one foot (say left) and using the other side (right) hand and foot to trace horizontal circles. Hand clockwise, foot counter-clockwise and vice versa. Once that gets thouroughly engrained and you can do it on either side with your eyes closed and in both directions then you can work with it on a partner and it suddenly blossoms into at least 8 different throws.

Leg hooks their"

right leg from the outside
right leg from the inside
left leg from the outside
left leg from the inside

and then hooking with either your own right or left leg. Add to that the various relative positions of you and your partners body and you suddenly have LOTS of throws but all basically from one single movement principle, namely, hook the leg and grab the upper body and move them in circles the top and botom circling in opposite directions.

[Akhilleus]

It's great for camping.

[joedoe]

It's great for camping.

LOL! Yes, and for other emergency situations

[word of honor]

LOL yeah that and a low square horse stance can also come in quite handy using the toilets in china

[IronFist]

My point was that horse stance training develops no real skill outside of doing a horse stance. Even if it did, there are better ways to accomplish whatever your goals are (unless your goal is holding a horse stance).

If it developed some form of power or something that was useful in actual sports/athletics/combat/etc., don't you think that athletes in the upper echelons of some sport would train horse stance? No one in the Olympics does it (maybe Olympic Wushu people... hey did they ever make Wushu an Olympic event? j/w). Not swimmers, runners, boxers, olympic lifters, track and field guys, marathoners, etc. Pro fighers don't, MMA guys don't, wrestlers don't, pro boxers don't, pro football players, soccer players, baseball players, etc. all don't.

You can't deny that. People whose income and sometimes whose very livelihood depends on their athletic prowess do everything to get absolutely every edge in their chosen sport. They get the best coaches and trainers, they get the best chemists and the best drugs, they get the best nutritionists, and they get the best training programs that come from the most advanced research available. Yet, not one professional sport uses extended horse stance training as a part of its training.

Does it develop willpower, as someone mentioned before? Sure. But so does lifting weights for higher reps to failure, if you want to talk about using your will to go through a "burn" when you want to give up. You all probably know that muscles only get stronger in the angles they're worked +/- about 15 degrees, so other than building endurance in your legs in the angles at which you're holding your stances, it really is not doing much else.

Someone said it opens up the hip joints or something. This is nothing that couldn't also be achieved (perhaps even more effectively) by a specific flexibility program.

So I guess it all depends on what your goals are. If you want to be able to hold a horse stance for a while and to go through your forms smoothly, then by all means, practice holding your stances. If you want to develop maximal strength, power, or be a good fighter, then it's absolutely not required, as evidenced by the world's strongest, most powerful, and best fighters, none of which train horse stance.

[joedoe]

Actually, the ma bu might actually be good training for ... wait for it ... horse riding!

[omarthefish]

My point was that horse stance training develops no real skill outside of doing a horse stance.

And MY point is that your argument applies to bench press, running, wind sprints, running stairs, kicking a heavy bag, skipping rope and any other supplementary exercise you can think of. To whit:

-Bench Pressing develops no real skill our side of doing a bench press.
-Clean and Jerk develpps no real skill out side of doing a clean and jerk.
-kicking thai pads develpps no real skill out side of kicking thai pads.
-burpee's develop no real skill out side of doing burpees. . .

In other words, it doesn't really say much. BUT I will give you that in a way, I agree. The primary "skill" it gives you is a good horse stance.

If it developed some form of power or something that was useful in actual sports/athletics/combat/etc., don't you think that athletes in the upper echelons of some sport would train horse stance?

Absolutely! That's why the atheletes at the top eschelons of the martial arts incorporating those deep stances DO train the horse stance. Mas Oyama, Chang Dong Sheng and others. Just to be clear, I am NOT taking a stand on the value of sitting in a horse for enourmous amounts of time lilke 45 minutes or even half an hour. Separate issue.

No one in the Olympics does it

Relevance? Gong Fu is not an Olympic sport. Would a track and field guy use a figure skaters training methods?

(maybe Olympic Wushu people... hey did they ever make Wushu an Olympic event? j/w).

No. Not yet. Still working on it.

Not swimmers, runners, boxers, olympic lifters, track and field guys, marathoners, etc.

See my comment above. No Gong Fu in the Olympics.

Pro fighers don't, MMA guys don't,

Many do. Depends on the sport. Stance training is certainly part of Kyokshinkai. Same thing for Shuai Jiao.

[/quote]wrestlers don't, pro boxers don't, pro football players, soccer players, baseball players, etc. all don't.[/quote]

Once again, more irrelevant comparisons. It's like saying bag works is not valuable training. Wrestlers don't, pro boxers don't, pro football players, soccer players, baseball players, etc. all don't.

Yet, not one professional sport uses extended horse stance training as a part of its training.

Except for the exceptions I noted, Kyokshin Karate, Shuai Jiao, Gong Fu competitors in China.

Does it develop willpower, as someone mentioned before? Sure. But so does lifting weights for higher reps to failure, if you want to talk about using your will to go through a "burn" when you want to give up.

Agreed.

You all probably know that muscles only get stronger in the angles they're worked +/- about 15 degrees, so other than building endurance in your legs in the angles at which you're holding your stances, it really is not doing much else.

That's interesting. I didn't know about the +/- 15 degree's part. That means that it is building endurance in exactly the range of motion you need it most for many traditional martial arts. No wonder it is such a vital part of traditional training.

Someone said it opens up the hip joints or something. This is nothing that couldn't also be achieved (perhaps even more effectively) by a specific flexibility program.

That was me I think. Or at least I mentioned it in passing. There IS a specific flexibility program for it. It's called stance training. It's an odd kind of flexibility though. The kind of stance's I like to hold are impossible for most begginers regardless of whatever background they have in Yoga or Ballet or whatever. Even the wushu guys typically can't do it once you make the appropriate postural corrections. This is what I think the real benifit is. I agree with ONE OF your points that there are better more efficient ways to develop leg strength or endurance. Strength, yes. Endurance....no other exercise developes the same kind of endurance. Mainly your argument is based on explaining why horse stance training is not usefull for people who don't make active use of horse stances. Well duh. For those of us who DO use these things though...we need to work on those horses.

[fiercest tiger]

Horse stance is a load of sh!t, good for beginners to know how to stand only, some pain but you better off fighting and learning to move fast on your feet. I think some sick f@ck has made alot of **** up and thought i wonder if i can get people to sit like this for an Hr!

LOL
FT

[omarthefish]

Yet, not one professional sport uses extended horse stance training as a part of its training.

Just spent some time on google and was surprised to find that GOLFERS of all people do stance training. lol

Oh yeah, I can add various Xing Yi professional fighters to the list of professionals who use stance training.

I think some sick f@ck has made alot of **** up and thought i wonder if i can get people to sit like this for an Hr!

Someone like your teacher I guess. From your own homepage listed in your profile:

http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/Photos.htm Scroll down to the bottom where it says, "Technique drills and stance training." Although, based on the pic:

http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/images/...orse_class.jpg

It hardly qualifies. But what do you expect when the student(s) think the training they do is something "some sick (expletive) made up for his own sadistic fun.

Talk about yer self Pwnage. lol

[fiercest tiger]

YES, I am a sick f@ck, you know me? My sifu was a sicker f@ck he kept me in 1 gr horse stances for his enjoyment.

What good does it give you, cant you root from a natural stance?

FT SICK F@CK

[omarthefish]

lol

Good answer.

"natural" stance? Not sure what you mean. I know that the thread was titled "horse stance" training but I've only been talking about "stance" training. My bad. I don't really use the shaolin horse at all. Also, although it wasn't on this thread, I've said before and will say again that deep stances don't really help you "root". That's not where I see their value. IMO the most "rooted" stance is on one leg. But that's another story.

Rather than asking you to wade though my REALLY long posts above to see what I think they do I'll try to sum it up:

- engraining muscle memory for key postures. Postures you MUST move though to make certain techniques work or to get certain kinds of power out.
- developing certain kinds of flexibility, especially withing the pelvic girdle in the joints that are "officially" fused at a certain age.
- developing postural habits that "normal" people don't have.
-lastly and least importantly, to develop endurance though a very specific range of motion, the part MOST important to the application of the given style.

Also, the specific pattern of muscular tension/develpment created by certain stances is really not mimicked by any other exercise. But I think most of the confusion is because very very few people have ever really learned enough of the postural requirements to make it anything more than a simple isometric exercise for the legs.

If you manage to train a stance on into the 30 minute + range then I believe the entire issue and quality of training changes. A LOT of little physiological, psychological, and extrmely small postural changes and patterns of tension happen when you hold a position for that long. I've only done basic shoulder width zhan zhuang for that kind of time. Never done a low horse more than maybe 3 or 4 minutes tops.

[kungfu cowboy]

Good posts, omarthefish! Nails and heads and all.

[Chief Fox]

-Bench Pressing develops no real skill our side of doing a bench press.
-Clean and Jerk develpps no real skill out side of doing a clean and jerk.
-kicking thai pads develpps no real skill out side of kicking thai pads.
-burpee's develop no real skill out side of doing burpees. . .

So you are saying that the bench press doesn't develop the muscles that you use in a push or hmmmm....... let me think..... a punch?

And the clean and jerk doesn't help you to develop full body explosive power?

Kicking thai pads doesn't help you to improve your kicking form?

Burpee's don't help to improve your cardio?

and a horse stance doesn't help to build leg strength, improve flexibility and improve your ability to be rooted?

You sound like the kind of person that talks sooooo much that you start to believe your own press.

Looking forward to your long winded response.