Ma Bu (Horse Stance) Training

[red5angel]

If you engage in long hours of actuall structural sound punching, you will develop sound structure in order to have a good connection to the ground so that your punches will be powerful, and you will also develop good punching form.

..........

[BlueTravesty]

If you engage in long hours of stance training, you will develop sound structure in order to have a good connection to the ground so that your punches will be powerful.

If you engage in long hours of actually punching, you will develop sound structure in order to have a good connection to the ground so that your punches will be powerful, and you will also develop good punching form.

I leave it to you to determine which is a more efficient use of time.

yes, the second would be the more efficient use of time. But then, most CMA practitioners practice both, thus working on two different aspects of structuring, while still developing good punching form.

And let us not forget the famous/infamous horse stance punch drills. Ready? Yut, yee, sam, sei, ng....

[Chief Fox]

Picture attached.

[BlueTravesty]

lollerskates

[Lowlynobody]

I'm gone for a few days and this thread blows up. Way to much here for me to be bothered to reply to. I'm glad though that at least some people have a reasonable level of comprehension skills.

One of the main things I don't like about SAID is the inclusion of the "Ceterus Paribas"(sp?) statement i.e. all other thing being equal. Fighting is not a social science such as economics where you ignore large sets of variables so that you can draw conclusions based upon empirical evidence. Fighting, be it in the ring with its rule sets or in the all encompassing street, is nothing but variables as we all know. Fighting is not like bench press (or any other simple example one can think of) as it involves interaction with both a variable environment and a variable opponent and requires an array of trained skills to be successful.

If SAID was correct all fighters would do is fight (spar) all the time and nothing else. But fighters don't just spar all the time. The pressure placed upon the fighter when sparing or fighting by both the environment and the opponent does not easily (at least initially) allow for the correct development of foundation skills. So fighters train other things other than fighting. They lift weights, they stretch, they jog, the do pad drills, the hit the heavy bag, train evasion, footwork and covering, etc. Then they take those things and put them together when they spar or fight.

Horse stance for many kung fu players is traditionally part and parcel of their martial art's foundation. So get over it.

[D4NNY]

I try to practice horse stance for 30min a day as i have found that it does help with all other stances as well as this one. Also allows alot of power between you and the floor making it harder to bein thrown or pushed back.

Danny

[ewallace]

I don't think many...if any are saying not to do stance training, in this case Ma Bu. But rather debunking the myths of the benefits one might gain by holding stances for excessive periods of time.

[BlueTravesty]

I have yet to hear anyone citing any "mythical" benefits of horsef stance. The closest to "myth" I've heard is the mention of spiral energy or spring energy. What's laughable about this is the notion that it doesn't exist. I mean come on, boxers, kickboxers, and even some grapplers will use it to some degree.

Granted, I'm just a newb to kung fu, but I have seen the use of the whole body being rotated to focus impact upon a single point being used to devastating effect in both CMA and in the pro fights I have been lucky enough to watch.

Anyone who uses their feet to put their whole body into a punch, uses torque to execute a throw or takedown, etc. is using spiral energy/silk reeling to a certain extent (I'm talking fundamental silk reeling/spiraling rather than the specialized training in Chen Taiji.) The difference lies only in the emphasis, and the name. It's found all over the world, not just in CMA, but a lot of CMA puts a unique emphasis on this aspect of body movement.

Most people who like to entertain the fantasy of being a "no-nonsense, no B.S." martial artist will scoff at poetic names like "Silk Reeling Energy" and debunk them as myth despite the fact that they make use of it too. The fact is, names don't matter and if something seems too "flowery" for one's taste, well, perhaps it's a case of "he doth protest too much" or just plain compensation for... something else

The question isn't whether spiral energy exists, however, but whether horse stance can help further develop this attribute. I can't say for sure myself, but I have seen my instructors and fellow practitioners who are able to pack quite a punch in one hit, be it an actual punch, or a sidekick. The difference between them and most MMAists is how recently and regularly they put this skill to the test. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that at least 50% of Kung Fu, TKD, Karate, Kenpo, Taiji (martial Taiji, not health Taiji, mind you) etc. instructors could hit just as hard and fast as Randy Couture, Bas Rutten, Chuck Lidell or (insert the name of your favorite UFC striker here) The difference would lie only in their strategy, training methods, the frequency of their fights (and perhaps the type of opponents they face.)

[ewallace]

I have yet to hear anyone citing any "mythical" benefits of horsef stance.

By myths I was referring to those (and there are many, and not necessarily posted on THIS thread) that believe holding stances for long periods of time develop muscles better and increase kicking power. I am not saying that stance training doesn't do that at all, I am saying that holding stances for long amounts of time only have certain benefits, strength and power not being amongst them.

[IronFist]

"Spiral Energy" does not exist. A muscle either contracts or it relaxes. You have tension or you have no tension. A muscle doesn't have special things that it can do.

If you're referring to some motion, then that would be a function of body mechanics which is caused by either tension or lack of tension in the muscles. Your muscles don't go "ok, now we're going to use spiral energy."

[SevenStar]

can you say...pwned?

[SevenStar]

this brings us to something I am always saying though - CMA analyze EVERYTHING and have names for things that sport guys don't, even though we are taught it as part of good technique. On ANY level, even the most basic, do you see spiraling (for example) in a sport fighter's technique?

[Fu-Pow]

If SAID was correct all fighters would do is fight (spar) all the time and nothing else. But fighters don't just spar all the time. The pressure placed upon the fighter when sparing or fighting by both the environment and the opponent does not easily (at least initially) allow for the correct development of foundation skills. So fighters train other things other than fighting. They lift weights, they stretch, they jog, the do pad drills, the hit the heavy bag, train evasion, footwork and covering, etc. Then they take those things and put them together when they spar or fight.

Horse stance for many kung fu players is traditionally part and parcel of their martial art's foundation. So get over it.

Nice work. You just demolished all the "wannabe MMA."

[IronFist]

Are you talking about me? He didn't prove anything I said wrong.

SAID is correct.

If SAID was correct all fighters would do is fight (spar) all the time and nothing else.

Fighting (sparring) makes them better at fighting.

They lift weights,

Lifting weights allows the muscles to generate more tension and therefore striker harder. How is that not SAID?

Again, my point was that extended horse stance training does not carry over into fighting due to SAID because there is nothing in fighting that approximates horse stance training.

There, I said it in once sentence. Did you guys understand it this time?

[word of honor]

yes i am understanding how people who only want to fight are interested in spending their time training to advance that practice. But as a traditional chinese martial artist like Eggman i do much more than just spar. Stance training is vital for push hands and form practice, for example. And i definitely find the mental discipline, focus and physical endurance all wrapped up in stance training directly benefit my sparring practice, even if these benefits wouldn't be recognized under a SAID paradigm. So from my perspective stance training is an incredibly efficient practice for a traditional chinese martial artist since it has so many applications across all the disciplines we practice-