Ma Bu (Horse Stance) Training

[SevenStar]

If Muay Thai guys eat side kicks all the time, why don't more Muay Thai guys use them?

because they eat them in san shou, which ultimately isn't what they train for, I'd imagine. I use them, and the hook kick, but don't teach either of them regularly...

[Reggie1]

I used to think that cuz I could do a horse stance for a while I'd be strong and able to kick harder and squat more than people who didn't, like it was some super secret form of training.

Just out of curiousity--is this something that you thought, or is this something that your teacher was telling you?

[MasterKiller]

because they eat them in san shou, which ultimately isn't what they train for, I'd imagine. I use them, and the hook kick, but don't teach either of them regularly...

But if they work....why don't Muay Thai guys use them in Muay Thai fights? I mean, no one goes into a grappling match saying "I'm only gonna use the scissor sweep today." You use what works, right?

[SevenStar]

Stances do little for kicking. They are one of the lamest ways of all to develope most kicks. Not only Muay Thai but just overall, punching styles in China emphaise stance work far more. Southern shaolin is the low stable one. Northen is higher and more agile.

yeah, that was our take on them - we didn't use them for strong kicks at all. It was for throwing and stance disruptions.

[SevenStar]

But if they work....why don't Muay Thai guys use them in Muay Thai fights? I mean, no one goes into a grappling match saying "I'm only gonna use the scissor sweep today." You use what works, right?

good question. My initial gues is preference, plain and simple - the teep accomplishes pretty much the same thing, so maybe coaches figure they will have them mater it instead of trying to introduce an extra technique into the works.

My next guess would be ignorance of it - it's not taught, so it's possible that alot of guys don't know about it. If I never teach it, then I am training a bunch of guys who don't know what it is, who will eventually train other guys who will never know what it is - until they run across it somehow. The sweep is actually IN the system, so they know what it is and use it if they see fit. The sidekick in modern thai is practically nonexistant.

[word of honor]

yeah, that was our take on them - we didn't use them for strong kicks at all. It was for throwing and stance disruptions.

oh yes strong low stances definitely help with throws and pushes. as far as kicks go, strength is only one important factor, transitional speed from a stance into the kick (not explosive power, more like fluidity) and precision of the strike itself (more precise, less power required) are also extremely important factors imo, and strong command of stances can really help accentuate those factors. so in these ways i was thinking how stance training can help enable more effective kicks. also i find training in duk lup ma (crane stance) directly correlates to my ability to block certain kicks faster higher and more effectively-

[Judge Pen]

Lots of great ways to develope leg strength and stamina....all of them are better than horse stance.


Again, horse stance for longer than about 6 mins is only training you to hold horse stance for more than 6 mins, which is a great hobby, but not for me.

Sure, but the bonding experience of making an etire class sit there in pain holding a parallel horse stance is priceless.

We practice them in class for endurance and will power (we actually do put staffs on our thighs to see if they will roll off) but we don't do it excessively. It's part of our warm-ups and we have to hold it for increasing durations in our conditioning portion of our tests. It does help to sink into a horse stance in a form or application when you get used to holding one properly for a few minutes. No way I can hold one with correct posture for 45 minutes though.

[SevenStar]

oh yes strong low stances definitely help with throws and pushes. as far as kicks go, strength is only one important factor, transitional speed from a stance into the kick (not explosive power, more like fluidity) and precision of the strike itself (more precise, less power required) are also extremely important factors imo, and strong command of stances can really help accentuate those factors. so in these ways i was thinking how stance training can help enable more effective kicks. also i find training in duk lup ma (crane stance) directly correlates to my ability to block certain kicks faster higher and more effectively-

I dunno if I agree with the "more precise, less power required" part. If I kick you right on the sciatic nerve, but it's a weaker kick, it doesn't do much. If it's a hard kick, the leg can go numb. If I punch you with a cross right in the jaw, you may not get knocked out, but with a harder punch, you likely will. strength and precision kinda go hand in hand.

[omarthefish]

If most people are doing this then maybe you should look at the way you write. Now I'm shutting up.

I was thinking about that but I'd rather just chalk it up to the fact that I rarely post here so no one realizes I have things to say that are better said without dumbing my posts down to a 3rd grade level.

But I dunno. Maybe I should just stick to my "regular" boards.

[omarthefish]

No. But once one has the proper mechanics of a punch, the added strength gained from benching will make them punch harder. Obviously someone who benches a lot but doesn't know how to throw a punch won't be able to hit that hard.

Bench press is still almost worthless for developing punching power. It can only help you arm punch better. Like you said, SAID, training to push will get you better at PUSHING, not punching. I assume there are many atheletic endeavor where this is important. A striking style MA is not one.

Let me address your other examples.

Clean and Jerk -
Kicking thai pads -
Burpees -

I can't believe you actually went through the trouble of trying to explain the use of those common exercises. So you actually thought that even AFTER I explained and Masterkiller explained and Fa Jing explained and we all teased Chief Fox for not realizing the first time that I was presenting those exercises in order to demonstrate the absurdity of your argument and NOT in some sort of lame non-sequeter attempt to say that they were no good.. . . you still felt compelled to defend those exercises.

Again, the difference between those two and horse stance is that with those you're actually using a motion similar to one you might use in a fight and therefore there is some carryover.

That's not a difference? Horse stances ARE similar to one you might use in a fight. Mine all are. I certainly use them in sparring anyways. I can only conclude that you have not been fortunate enough to ever learn a style of MA where the moves in the forms or in training actually had crossover into application. You must be only familiar with the modern Chinese style of training where you do some pointless drills and forms are for performance and then for fighting you switch to Sanda.

Correct, but you're kind of just proving my point that the only people who need horse stance training are TMAists. I never disagreed that it wasn't valuable for that type of training. My only point was that it has no real carryover into anything else, including fighting.

You just PWNED yourself big time. The 2 TMAists I named were famous FIGHTERS. One, Mas Oyama, FOUNDER of Kyuokshinkai Karate ...you know, the one the Japanese K1 fighters are so fond of, the one with all the bare knuckle full contact tournaments. The other Chang Dong Sheng, all China full contact fighting champion of the 30's. Also known for challenging people thoguhout china. Undefeated in his lifetime. Then let's also add that "only TMA" includes Judo, Muay Thai and BJJ. I think your slip is showing. Apparently you are not capable of objective thought were TMA is concerned. I now see the real basis of your argument:

Ironfist: "Stance training is employed by traditional martial artists for their training therefor it is bad because TMA sucks so by implication, so do their methods."

Right, but boxers do do bag work. My point was that if no one does something, it's probably of little value. Pro boxers do bag work because it is vaulable for boxing (fighting). Pro boxers also lift weights because it helps them develop power.

And once again TMA-ists do stance work and guess what:

So do lot's of atheletes. They just don't usually call it that . . .but they often do. 45 minutes in a stance, you don't see. But then again, most TMA'ists don't either. Most of us just hold each one for a couple minutes or untill our legs shake or whatever. Golfers do. Gymnasts do. Waterskiers do. (It should be obvious for them. They actually DO sit in a crouch for extended periods of time in their sport) Basketball coaches often have players "sit" knees bent 90 degrees with their backs supported by the wall behind them. Archers and sharpshooters absolutely do. Where do you get this stuff? You just make it up because it sounds good?

What in the world do you do that requires increased endurance with your knees at a 90 degree angle? You surely don't fight in that stance.

Be specific. What stance? I fight from the stances I train. I suspect I don't fight from the (most likely) Shaolin Sei Ping Ma that you are imagining. But I sure as hell used a rough approximation of it when I was in Hung Gar along with bow and empty stances. Now that I'm training Baji, I tend to use the Baji stances more which are different.

Ok listen. We all agree that horse stance builds endurance in that position, right? Let's suppose that in fighting you may take that position for 2 seconds

I'm not going to address the rest because I don't accept your premise. It's a stupid premise and highlights both your ignorance of how stances are used and the fact that you didn't read my summary on the last page of why they are important.

lol you know what I meant

Yes. Obviously. Just teasing.

Right. The other part of my argument was to make sure everyone knows that that's the only thing they're getting from their horse stance training.

I used to think that cuz I could do a horse stance for a while I'd be strong and able to kick harder and squat more than people who didn't, like it was some super secret form of training. I was kind of brought back into reality by some awesome people I had the privledge of meeting.

Anyway, good discussion. I have to go eat lunch.

Holy crap! We've just agreed with each other. Your right. They won't help you kick harder or squat more well they sort of DO help with that actually, just not as much as Squatting. It's those alignments I was talking about. You'll pick up the Olypic lifts better IF you have learned the postural details. They SHOULD be teaching you how to use leg power in your arms which is what you want for deadlifts, cleans etc. For squats it's the strictness of form that you need. I always see people trying to squat with their feet not parallel or not going down enough.

The problems are:

No one learns the important details.
People tend to be mislead about what they are for. (dumb applications and extrapolations)

Where we disagree is on the second one and I suspect you are guilty of the first causing you to miss out on much of their true vallue. You seem to have figured out much of what they are NOT for but haven't earned/been shown what they ARE for which I guess is better than where most people are at, just blindly training on faith.

[word of honor]

I dunno if I agree with the "more precise, less power required" part. If I kick you right on the sciatic nerve, but it's a weaker kick, it doesn't do much. If it's a hard kick, the leg can go numb. If I punch you with a cross right in the jaw, you may not get knocked out, but with a harder punch, you likely will. strength and precision kinda go hand in hand.

Yes power is very important but it's not the only factor at play, you illustrate this point very well with your examples! I had been musing how strong stances from stance training can help with consistency and precision of technique/aim. Using your example, a hard precise kick to the sciatic nerve can be far more effective than two harder more wild kicks more stemming from a weak inconsistent stance. And being more precise and efficient with the use of one's power ("more precise, less power required") also leaves more power in reserve just in case, which is always a good strategy imo

[omarthefish]

MK and 7*,

I think in the larger context side kicks don't work that well. The MT vs. Sanda fights always have the Sanda guys landing a lot but from what I've seen they tend to get tired out. Side kicks take a lot more energy than teeps. Also, grabbing the ropes is a penalty in Muay Thai. The Muay Thai vs. Sanda I have on VCD, the Sanda guy grabs it constantly for support when he throws his side kick.

I'm not sure. I think more signifigant is that they just don't mesh with the Muay Thai system of fighting, tactically and strategically. A lot of people tend to think of Sanda as "just Muay Thai with throws" but the 2 styles are really stylistically, tactically and strategically pretty different each with their own way of thinking about things.

It's like looking at 2 MMA fighters and asking why the sprawl and brawler doesn't ground and pound like the other guy since it obviously works. (or vice versa)

[fiercest tiger]

Yes u are right, having a stance doesnt give you root at all, natural stances are just that natural and when one is natural you are centered and rooted. One leg stance i catch your drift!

FT

[Fu-Pow]

My point was that horse stance training develops no real skill outside of doing a horse stance. Even if it did, there are better ways to accomplish whatever your goals are (unless your goal is holding a horse stance).

Horse stance is an integral part of external martial arts training. But it is very basic. Its a starting point to develop the leg and mind endurance necessary to complete other aspects of the training. In other words it just a way to get into shape, so that you can get into shape.

If it developed some form of power or something that was useful in actual sports/athletics/combat/etc., don't you think that athletes in the upper echelons of some sport would train horse stance?

I think you kind of miss the point here. Horse stance is a starting point for a certain kind of training for a certain kind of fighting. In styles of kung fu that emphasize horse stance training there is a progression. Static stance---->moving stance-------> stance work + hand techique (ie hand form.) In general the lower the stance that is required for forms, the more the style will emphasize uprooting and off-balancing your opponent (and seek to defend against uprooting). The key here is that the lower stance allows you to move without raising your center of gravity. (Speaking of external styles here, not internal.)

No one in the Olympics does it (maybe Olympic Wushu people... hey did they ever make Wushu an Olympic event? j/w). Not swimmers, runners, boxers, olympic lifters, track and field guys, marathoners, etc. Pro fighers don't, MMA guys don't, wrestlers don't, pro boxers don't, pro football players, soccer players, baseball players, etc. all don't.

True, but many sports have you transition through stances that are similar to horse stance. They just skip the static stance training part. Which as I stated before is just the beginning.

You can't deny that. People whose income and sometimes whose very livelihood depends on their athletic prowess do everything to get absolutely every edge in their chosen sport.

Kung fu is not a sport.

They get the best coaches and trainers, they get the best chemists and the best drugs, they get the best nutritionists, and they get the best training programs that come from the most advanced research available. Yet, not one professional sport uses extended horse stance training as a part of its training.

The only correlation I can think of is with "contact" sports. And personally I think that they could benefit from some of that training. If I'd had the solid foundation that I have now when I played football I would have owned the other lineman.

Does it develop willpower, as someone mentioned before? Sure. But so does lifting weights for higher reps to failure, if you want to talk about using your will to go through a "burn" when you want to give up. You all probably know that muscles only get stronger in the angles they're worked +/- about 15 degrees, so other than building endurance in your legs in the angles at which you're holding your stances, it really is not doing much else.

It does create mental discipline but it may even go beyond that. When there is the threat of violence (or other stressors) your flight or fight response is activated. Your blood tends to withdraw into the center of your body. Ever been really scared or nervous and had your legs become suddenly weak? Stance training, breathing, meditation, forms are all designed to help you mediate that response. Its not just a matter of strength training.

So I guess it all depends on what your goals are. If you want to be able to hold a horse stance for a while and to go through your forms smoothly, then by all means, practice holding your stances. If you want to develop maximal strength, power, or be a good fighter, then it's absolutely not required, as evidenced by the world's strongest, most powerful, and best fighters, none of which train horse stance.

Thats a pretty grandiose statement. My current sparring partner is a former golden gloves boxer. When we first started sparring he adopted the very classic boxing stance. He would move in and try to blitzkrieg me with punches. Soon I learned that I could utilize my stances, sweeps and trips to disrupt his root. No root, no punches and he soon adopted a lower stance to avoid that kind of thing. There is a purpose for horse stance training as part of the progression of learning kung fu.
So I reject your assertion that it is a waste of time.

[omarthefish]

Yes u are right, having a stance doesnt give you root at all, natural stances are just that natural and when one is natural you are centered and rooted. One leg stance i catch your drift!

FT

Cool.