The Tiger and Leopard Influence on Pak Mei

[Yum Cha]

Olaf,
I would say, do your externals first, over and over and over and over, etc......

Slowly....once you learn to not only remember, execute, execute with power, execute with variation, execute with reflex, execute with mindlessness - then, when you find this void, then you will find what comes next.

I believe that Pak Mei has some unique characteristics to its internal side, and they can't simply be substituted with other "internal" exercises. Maybe thats the duality of the Pak Mei system, I don't know. Its just thats the way it feels to me.

[Hardtail]

Olaf,
I would say, do your externals first, over and over and over and over, etc......

Slowly....once you learn to not only remember, execute, execute with power, execute with variation, execute with reflex, execute with mindlessness - then, when you find this void, then you will find what comes next.

I believe that Pak Mei has some unique characteristics to its internal side, and they can't simply be substituted with other "internal" exercises. Maybe thats the duality of the Pak Mei system, I don't know. Its just thats the way it feels to me.

Well said. No substitute for doing it right over and over and over again. And I did say doing it right !!
I think I know what you mean, it feels the same to me also. The words external and internal don't really mean a hill of beans to me to be honest, by doing the hard work or kung fu if you will, one reaps all of the benefits as far as I can work out. I believe that this is the way it should be in all the Chinese arts, no such thing as a division of soft and hard. I think mutation or evolution depending on your angle has changed this to a large extent.
From reading much posting here, not everywhere though. :-)

[Olaf]

Thanks all for the reactions.

I am in violent agreement over the importance of thraining the externals over and over again. It is hard work to make averything work at the same time. Given the fact that I haven't learned much of the 'internal' stuff I was just hoping that correct execution of the externals would automaticall lead to internal development.

So off on a new quest! Can anyone here perhaps point me in the right direction?

[fiercest tiger]

POOR YUMMY, I hope that your not pinning all your hopes on internal work by just External forms of BM are you? Dude, im sorry but i dont think you have understood what INTERNAL is im sorry to be answering like this. You know we go back a while and all but i have to say it sorry bro.

Olaf, please go and learn some internal kung fu and find out yourself without EGO or being one sided.

Its easier to go from soft to hard not the other way as well.

Tao Yin,

I wouldnt count on your answer either, i will tell you on MSN why.

FT da *******

[Hardtail]

POOR YUMMY, I hope that your not pinning all your hopes on internal work by just External forms of BM are you? Dude, im sorry but i dont think you have understood what INTERNAL is im sorry to be answering like this. You know we go back a while and all but i have to say it sorry bro.

Olaf, please go and learn some internal kung fu and find out yourself without EGO or being one sided.

Its easier to go from soft to hard not the other way as well.

Tao Yin,

I wouldnt count on your answer either, i will tell you on MSN why.

FT da *******

May I ask you why you believe it easier to go from soft to hard and not vice-versa?

[Lowlynobody]

Well, it would seem fieircest tiger has a different meaning of micro macro orbits as related to your idea of internal. Unless, i have the wrong interpretation of what he said.

Yes you indeed do have the wrong interpretation. I have no idea how you came to it.


From Yum Cha -

The micro and macro exercises are separate to Jik Bo, and yes, they are "meditations" as you call them. What I'm trying to say is that like so many of the lessons of Pak Mei, when you study one thing, it washes a layer over the other things you do. Thus, capturing the "feelings" and "mechanics" of the internal lessons, you learn to apply them to other exercises, a good place to start is Jik Bo. Its really physically quite intuitive.

So here you have said that your internal practice actually (initially at least) had nothing to do with jik bo or bak mei hand sets for that matter. But once your body learnt the internal leasons to a point where things occur intuitively (without conscious thought) they became part of your bak mei simply because they became a part of your body or how your body works.

If that is the case it really still begs the question - Will jik bo or bak mei in general give you internal benefits without some sort of extracurricular internal practice? From what you have said it certainly seems that it wont.

[Soykuil]

Hey guys,
Can i ask who here has actually practiced/practices or had any experience with an internal art?

The techniques are different, forms are different, even the names of the techniques are different. Some of the names refer to the universe chi etc. i know all of you know or may think who cares it means nothing and i understand that everyone interprets things their own ways which is great.

An internal art truely becomes internal, not because you have some ging or can make a tai chi sword quiver, but because you are cultivating the chi with chi gung, meditations etc. And i am sorry to say this but the power delivered from a truely internal guy is different to an external guy.

Is anyone misinterpreting the saying that external arts become internal at the higher levels? I mean they become softer, more relaxed and flowing with ging etc but not to the depth of a true internal system.

I think this debate will never be resolved because of everyone's differing opinions.

Did CLC develop jik bo as an internal form? or is it your own opinion that it is internal? Remember CLC did have meds and chi gungs to develop his power .

[Yum Cha]

Hi Guys,
I lost my computer, one of those catostrophic events you read about. Back in order now, 4 days later....

Yes you indeed do have the wrong interpretation. I have no idea how you came to it.

From Yum Cha -
So here you have said that your internal practice actually (initially at least) had nothing to do with jik bo or bak mei hand sets for that matter. But once your body learnt the internal leasons to a point where things occur intuitively (without conscious thought) they became part of your bak mei simply because they became a part of your body or how your body works.

If that is the case it really still begs the question - Will jik bo or bak mei in general give you internal benefits without some sort of extracurricular internal practice? From what you have said it certainly seems that it wont.

Firstly, thank you for reading my comments accurately. Perhaps you can explain it to Fiercest Kitten, as he seems to have totally mis-read what I said. (lol@garry!)

I can't answer your question, because I have no idea exactly what YOU mean by "internal benefits". I know you guys get enamoured with your latest cross training adventures, but you fail to remember, I'm not a cross trainer. I'm just a simple Kao La, Sut Choi Pak Mei Donkey.

The breathing/meditations conditioned the external? Or perhaps the external conditioned the breathing/meditations? I can't say, its just the sum of the parts.

I guess in essence, it comes down to physical simplicity and economy to create speed and power. All controlled by strategy and attitude.

But hey, if you like your "internal" training, and it makes you a better martial artist, more power to you. Just don't astrally travel over here and give me a chi blast, or send FT over with a knife and fork...

[fiercest tiger]

YUM CHA,

You have lost your mind you stupid Donkey, better put you out to stud or better yet just put down...lol

Dont be mad that you havent figured out what your style is used for or trained for Matthew, you havent got the full Bak Mei system and its clear you dont know Bak Mei chi kung. How can your art be an internal external system when you know nothing about CHI or how to develop it, store it, use it?

Kol la sut choi, hmm how would you use this technique in a fight Matthew?

FT no knive just a fork

[Lowlynobody]

Hey Yum Cha,

I thought we might have lost you. Who would we have discussions with then?

By internal benefits I ment jik bo giving any internal results/development (whatever they may be - I'm keen to hear what you would include as the internal benefits of jik bo). Hope that makes my question clearer. Perhaps you could answer it within the context of what YOU consider to be internal benefits. I hope you will because I'm always interested in other points of view.

I know you guys get enamoured with your latest cross training adventures, but you fail to remember, I'm not a cross trainer. I'm just a simple Kao La, Sut Choi Pak Mei Donkey.

To tell the truth mate you don't know what I train or what I do. You have never come to a class or seen me train by myself or even met me so I think you may take some assumptions a tad far. Just because sifu is training an interesting internal system or otherwise does not automatically mean I'm now studying the same system. Sure I have many conversations with sifu about what he has learnt and he shows me many interesting things but I'm not actually training it. I'm simply interested in martial arts and anything that expands my awareness (not exactly intimate knowledge) of the different methods/styles that exist can only help. Just keeping an open mind. Martial artists should be good open minded thinkers after all. Not simply doing things because some chinese man (who most likely did not have the same body shape as me) 500 years ago did it and legend tells us it worked for him.

My "internal" training consists of the first YKM internal form (for health mainly) some standing chi gung (body conectivity and health) and mindfulness type meditation.

I look forward to your reply.

[Yum Cha]

Yea, you're right Garry, I don't understand the internal, I'm busted. I just can't seem to get the astral projection and chi materialisation you talk about down, and my no-touch knockout just doesn't seem to work.

I'm happy with my training, and I wish you the same happiness with yours, I can see that I have nothing to offer you and your lads.

[Go Jun Long]

YUM CHA,

You have lost your mind you stupid Donkey, better put you out to stud or better yet just put down...lol

Dont be mad that you havent figured out what your style is used for or trained for Matthew, you havent got the full Bak Mei system and its clear you dont know Bak Mei chi kung. How can your art be an internal external system when you know nothing about CHI or how to develop it, store it, use it?

Kol la sut choi, hmm how would you use this technique in a fight Matthew?

FT no knive just a fork

So what do YOU use this Chi for? Is it for Healing, protection or power?

[Fu-Ying]

Internal is nothing more than a person's own perception of a metaphysical experience. You can visualize "energy" being stored in tantien projected out of your hand, focused etc.....but really, there is no electric energy being channeled and stored going on in your body. Can these so called "internal exercises" make you stronger and focused in your martial arts..? Of course it can, but so can other training methods.

It's all a matter of point of view.

Hei gung, well to me it means breathing exercise. Would Yoga be considered a internal exercise?

Why can't you run 5miles full out; simple, your body won't allow it. So, does that mean marathon running is more internal training than sprinting? How bout race walking? or ultra-marathoners.. 20+ miles?
So, internal you can do all day long without getting tired? is that the definition? Can you do your internal training as fast as you can do it all day long without being tired?

Power inside, outside, means nothing in actual movement. More subjective metaphycial mumbo jumbo.

[fiercest tiger]

Why you upset, you have been having digs at me this whole thread pal as well the arts i study and the teachers i study with. So my little attack is very small comparing!

You are right about being happy with what you do and im happy you have your internal jik bo for what its worth. You do offer great discussions and i enjoy our debates, but maybe you can keep an open mind rather then rule out everything i say. My whole issue was that you asked what the small and large micro-orbit was and then next minute you are doing it inside jik bo or jik bo develops this. I asked how and you couldnt answer but criticis teachers regarding materialising chi, astrol travel and so forth which is a dig at me and i know you enough to know you are having a go mate.

I am as open minded as they come i train 3 different arts now and i can see major differences in the developemnt of CHI and its usage. Thats why im not agreeing to your internal jik bo theory as i believe it hasnt got the machanics or correct posture IMHO to be internal. This can also be depending on the Jik Bo you practise as well!

FT

Gou Lung,

Hi, i study a Daoist internal system called Wun Yuen Yut Hei Jurng (Primordial Chaos one chi palm system) as well YKM internal sets as well other arts. I use the Chi for Healing, Ging destruction, cultivating and storing. Wun Yuen connects me with the Dao, sounds weird but things are happening within and out when you practise as well people can feel your energy when standing near. Wun Yuen goes against every art that i have practised recently, YKM, Bak Mei, BFP etc and is strictly Daoist chi kung and fighting. I feel more connected to the energy then i ever have due to its unique but natural methods. It puts me on a higher energy plane then the rest or the arts as now i do the form or should i say CHI is moving my body then my thoughts of muscle if you can understand what im trying to say? Which i go into a nothing VOID state and loose time and i have outer body experiences. Yep in nuts right?!

My training consist of sitting chi kung for cultivation of chi, and i have meds and methods to practise for Chi Healing with the hands. Then there is standing chi kung and a chi kung set for health then the wun yuen form which takes 1 hr to do when done right.

well enough of me thats all i can say at this point im starting to not make sense or i cant put it into words what i feel and sense with internal kung fu. I know that now where my purpose is for training kung fu, ive moved to internal now. I dont practise much external forms these days but teach them out as part of my sylubus. All i can say to you all is that there is alot within internal that you can never get from external training as you know. It depends on where you are headed with yourself if you wanna take your fu to another level thats all.

I found something that is very fasinating and i havent felt anything like this with my previous arts.

all the best matt and guys
FT

[TAO YIN]

"Big circles for healing and small circles for killing..."

E=MC2

And shiit...

Velocity is equal to distance traveled per unit time.

Force is equal to mass times acceleration.

Acceleration is equal to an increased rate of change in velocity.

Any ideas anyone???

Forgot to mention, DMT is illegal.